Brit rail

Discussion in 'HO Scale Model Trains' started by curmudgeon, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi -

    Anyone modelling British steam?

    I'm looking for a forum - newly interested & want LOTS of info![​IMG]


  2. cidchase

    cidchase Active Member

    Hi curmudgeon,
    We got folks from all over (and under) here!!
    That Hornby OO Mallard is on my want list;
    I only model US, but ..... :thumb: :thumb:

    There's supposed to be a purty good club in Dickson,
    maybe you're close to there. :)

    Labor fellat;autem, facti impleant.
  3. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi cidchase - [​IMG]

    MOF, I'm ~70 mi from Dickson - too "fur & snakey" unfortunately.

    I suppose they model U.S. roads?

    I have SP. UP, NYC, other, I'm just into the Brit stuff right now - diff ballgame in a lot of ways.

    Thanks for the welcome. [​IMG]

  4. 60103

    60103 Pooh Bah

    I model British up here. There are a number of groups of British modellers, but the "umbrella" is British Railway Modellers of North America (BRMNA). They have members across the continent, and also a list of dealers who specialize in British.
    Ask away, I'll try to answer, even if it's Great Western. :curse: ;)
  5. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi 60xxx - [​IMG]

    I'd hoped to find a Pooh Bah, or at least a mavin.[​IMG]

    I'll ck that site - sounds like the place.

    I'm slowly learning & constantly surprised by the diffs.

    Bearing in mind that "scale" & "gauge" aren't the same, 1st question:

    00 & HO models are at least very close in actual gauge (i.e., track spacing) if not the same.
    Some 1:1 Brit systems/locos were (are?) Broad Gauge. Were all 5' gauge or other widths also?
    00/HO *scale* (NOT gauge) models of those would be "undersized" compared to Standard gauge (4'-8.5") models in 00/HO scale (varying w/exact gauge of the prototype), tho fitting the same 00/HO track.
    Are all 00 Hornby/Airfix/etc. of Standard gauge locos & therefore to the same scale as HO or are Broad gauge models just not noticeably smaller?
    (Please supply the correct response if neither of my guesses is right! [​IMG])


    BTW - colorful liveries (including GWR - I've already bought one[​IMG]) are what first attracted me.
    So what have those sob's done, so I won't make the mistake of getting more involved with THEM?! [​IMG]

  6. grumbeast

    grumbeast Member

    Hi Curmudgeon,

    Don't listen to 60103, he just has a thing for the LNER :) :) The Great Western (or should I say "Gods Wonderful Railway") is a fine fine railway, those supporters of those 'other' railways have never gotten over the fact that we had real Welsh steam coal and not that other stuff they were forced to use :) :) :)


    p.s. incidentally, I do model a little British outline but in N scale.

    00 is 4mm to the foot with 16.5mm track (1/76th scale)
    HO is 3.5mm to the foot scale with 16.5mm track (1/87th scale)

    so the track systems are entirely compatible. Some British railways were broad gauge (the GWR originally for 1) but standarisations to 4'8 1/2" came in the mid to late (I think) 1800s

    SO... anything you'll model in HO British outline is likely to be 16.5mm track
    (OO/HO) with 1/76th scale locomotives and stock.

    There are some fine-scale British modelling standards that I'm not too familiar with
    (P4 / EM) but thats real scartchbuilding stuff.

    Hope this helps, and remember.. GWR GWR GWR!!!
  7. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi all -

    For David (dba 60103) -

    Looked over the BRMNA site & learned some stuff.
    So GWR *was* the Broad gauge system until late 1800's.
    Found that HO is 1/87th scale, OO (UK) is 1/76th scale - so ALL of it's "narrow gauge" on HO track - "HOn4'1.5", as it were.
    I suppose, then, that the necessary distortion is simply to be ignored, or are there *TRUE* HO scale models of Brit steam available from common sources (not custom or brass - $$$$!!!) as Bachmann, etc.?

    Dunno about in Canada, but in rural TN, "hermit" isn't a high-pay field! :)


  8. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi Graham - [​IMG]

    We almost bumped each other w/our posts! [​IMG]

    All this about "THIS road, not THAT one": sounds like a family squabble to me! Being utterly charmed by all of it, I'll keep out of it! [​IMG]

    Actually, as I understand the history, by modelling c. 1930's, mebbe NE of London (? dunno the system overlaps), I'd "be" in a time & locale where, considering track rights, the AMAZING longevity of the equiptment and how long liveries, markings, etc. might still be seen in use after major changes, I could run most ANYTHING built up until that time and still be prototypical.

    Sort of a "best of all worlds" to me! [​IMG]

    Or am I wrong?

  9. grumbeast

    grumbeast Member

    the 30s were a pretty interesting time with some amazingly beautiful locomotives running on all of the big four (ok.. I admit.. I love all four railway companies, I just have an affinity with the GWR growing up in S.Wales.)

    I found this railroad map of the main terminus's in London in 1935 online

    might help a little. I'm not sure how much running rights were used in London, but there were some famous trials where the companies exchanged thier "best" locomotives for trials with each other.

    North East London would be primarily London North Eastern (duh.. go figure :) , so all of those lovely pacific's that David likes, plus some really nice smaller tender locomotives (I really have a softspot for V2's and B1's)


    But for my money you really can't beat a GWR Castle with those lovely copper capped Exhaust and Brass safety valve.

    Anyway hope this helps a little

  10. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi Graham -

    Can you clarify about the map? Is it part of LNER, all 4 color-coded, or ?

    As I've said - I'm enchanted by 'em all!
    Tho', as a Southerner, I lean toward SR.
    However, as a far-removed scion of Clan Campbell, I lean toward LMSR.
    Then again, as OUR Southern 'roads were "Broad Gauge", I lean toward GWR.
    And I think LNER ran up into Scotland too............... [​IMG]

    Truthfully, I'm taken more by the older, smaller goods & MT engines & Belpaire fireboxes -
    ANYTHING with only 2 driving wheels, 0-4-0s, 0-6-0s, outside frames.
    Tho' the GWR engine I have is a 61xx 2-6-2T, I think in future 4-4-0 will be my largest.
    I'd give *MONEY* to have a Stirling or Midland Single!
    Just my personal take on it (prolly be eating crow eventually, too - "Castles" ARE lovely).

  11. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi all -

    With ref. to Graham's map link above:
    Studying it, LNER=blue, LMSR=red, GWR=yellow & SR=olive.
    What is the brown? London city system? I assume they all ran on this.

    If so, it appears Farringdon-Aldgate (from N to E of St. Paul's) would be a perfect section to model, even having a wye at each end!
    Any guesses on (or knowledge of) the measurement system used here (e.g., 9c, 35c, etc., alongside the trackage)?


  12. Isambard

    Isambard Member

    My goodness! May I ask as to what so stirs your bile regarding the Great Western, Sir?
  13. 60103

    60103 Pooh Bah

    I just don't know as much about the Great Way Round as some of the others; I lost interest when they had to abandon the broad gauge.
    The c in the map is probably a "chain" -- 66 feet; just under 11" in OO.
    British OO is what came out when they tried to make their own locomotives for HO track. There's so much support for it that any change is nearly impossible. There are the various fine/exact scale groups that widen the gauge. There are also some brave sould who want to model in HO; all they have is track and a couple of locomotives; not even any building kits.
    The map reduced itself to unreadability when I downloaded it, so I can't really comment.
    There are also some brave souls that model 7' 0 1/4" GWR broad gauge (and even mixed gauge.) No visible support from the trade.
  14. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Thanks David -

    I've sorted out that what I'm after is:
    a) Fun
    b) A reasonable representation (after all, it's "modelling")
    c) Fun

    So I'll ignore scale discrepancies just for the pleasure. [​IMG]

    Can anyone help with the brown map lines?

  15. Isambard

    Isambard Member

    The brown lines are the famous London Underground (Tube) system. If you Google "London Undergound" (or Tube) you'll find what today's lines look like. Most of them appear on Graham's map link.
    During the 1930's the LNER and the LMS were fierce competitors, running very-high-speed steam-powered passenger service between London and Scotland, the LNER between London and Edinburgh on the east side of the UK, and the LMS between London and Glasgow on the west.
  16. ttmac

    ttmac New Member

  17. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi all - [​IMG]

    Thanks Isambard & ttmac.

    So then, since there's no indication of surface trackage (there wasn't, right?), if my assumption that the Big 4 all used the "brown" (therefore underground!) system is correct, it wouldn't make for very exciting railroading. [​IMG]
    OH, WELL!!
    Back to the drawing board!

    Anyone familiar enough with the systems to suggest a locale anywhere, concentrated enough to withstand "layout compression", trafficked by all? (I don't want to be FORCED to leave YOUR favorite 'road out!)[​IMG]

    However, please feel free to suggest an area that happens to omit THEIR favorite, if necessary.[​IMG][​IMG]


  18. grumbeast

    grumbeast Member

    I'm not sure if there was anywhere where all four railways were represented. Lots of places for 2 though, based on geographical neighbours, GWR/LMS GWR/SR LMS/LNER etc

  19. 60103

    60103 Pooh Bah

    I'll see what I can find on this. There was a loop line (North London line?) that made an arc across just above the main stations and crossed all the railways, except possibly the Southern.
    Tidbit: the government passed laws restricting the railways from encroaching on the City of London. That's why Paddington, Marylebone, St Pancras, Euston and Kings + are all in a straight line. Since there was nothing worth talking about south of the river, the southern lines could build right up into the city.
    As far as I know, there was no place that the LNER and GWR met. Don't know if LNER met the Southern, either.
  20. curmudgeon

    curmudgeon Member

    Hi all -

    Thanks Graham & David.

    I've come to the realization that I've been somewhat overly focused here.
    Since model railroading is for "funzies" ( no offense meant to finescalers or others), I can do whatever I want - it isn't REQUIRED to be "authentic".

    I'm content to run all liveries under the guise of "track rights".[​IMG]

    So, changing tack a little, I'd appreciate input about the quailties of various mfrs. rolling stock & structures. Any complaints, kudos for any in particular?

    BTW - a special "thanks" for that map link, Graham - I'm truly enjoying being able to put into proper relation all the famous sites & areas of London of which I've heard, read about & seen in movies all my life.[​IMG]


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