What About Passenger Service?

iis612

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But trains don't fall out of the sky killing everyone on board, and they aren't vulnerable to heat-seeking missiles. Modern jet passenger aircraft are far more vulnerable than anything else moving today.
I fail to agree in so much as air traffic is far more closely monitored, from movement of aircraft to who may be boarding the planes, and who is learning to fly them. Trains may not fall out of the sky but some of the commodities carried can be used to level a major city.
The fact is that total body count is not exactly the goal of the terrorist groups. If rail service is disrupted the American economy takes another HUGE blow. There are more goods moving via rail today than there has been in recent years and if a section of rail is tampered with to the point of derailment then what do you think the FRA will do? What will shippers do? What will the railroads do?
 

doctorwayne

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Sep 6, 2005
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Canada, eh?
I fail to agree in so much as air traffic is far more closely monitored, from movement of aircraft to who may be boarding the planes, and who is learning to fly them. Trains may not fall out of the sky but some of the commodities carried can be used to level a major city.
The fact is that total body count is not exactly the goal of the terrorist groups. If rail service is disrupted the American economy takes another HUGE blow. There are more goods moving via rail today than there has been in recent years and if a section of rail is tampered with to the point of derailment then what do you think the FRA will do? What will shippers do? What will the railroads do?

The goal of "terrorists" is to create "terror", a task at which they've succeeded admirably. No further planes need to be brought down, nor trains derailed - government-fed hysteria will do the job and has already begun to erode the civil liberties that we all value so highly (it's happening on my side of the border, too!). I'm not saying that nothing will happen again or that the threat isn't real, but the "commies" that lurked behind every lamppost in the past have donned turbans and grown beards. ;):p And as for damaging the economy, big business can take care of that task without any input from other factions. :-D
And to get back to the topic: it's too bad that the network of branchlines and interurbans that once laced North America are gone, as had that infrastructure been economically viable to maintain, we'd have a ready-made alternative to our current situation. You could go to-and-from many places by rail or rail and steamer in the 1920s.

Wayne
 
N

nachoman

If governments would subsidize new rail lines and train stations the way they subsidize highways and airports, I bet we would see more passenger rail lines.

They are building a light-rail line here in Phoenix. Better public transportation is long overdue. Originally, over half the residents suppotred it. Once the construction headaches started, many supporters jumped ship and declared the unfinished line a waste of taxpayer money. Now that gas has gone up, I bet it will be popular and people will wish the trains were more convenient to where they live or work so that they could take advantage. But still, there is probably 25% of the local population who claim they will never ride it or consider riding it because riding public transportation is "beneath them".

Kevin
 

Mountain Man

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I fail to agree in so much as air traffic is far more closely monitored, from movement of aircraft to who may be boarding the planes, and who is learning to fly them. Trains may not fall out of the sky but some of the commodities carried can be used to level a major city.
The fact is that total body count is not exactly the goal of the terrorist groups. If rail service is disrupted the American economy takes another HUGE blow. There are more goods moving via rail today than there has been in recent years and if a section of rail is tampered with to the point of derailment then what do you think the FRA will do? What will shippers do? What will the railroads do?

And passenger aircraft have been used as guided missiles to destroy the World Trade Center, by terrorists who had zero difficulty learning to fly them right here in America. Currently, a large majority of passenger aircraft are maintained at service centers outside of America - why? Because labor is cheaper and there is no FAA oversight or inspection. That might be your idea of safe travel, but it isn't mine.

Terrorism is an entirely different subject. A nuclear device that will level an entire city can be fitted into a suitcase in the trunk of a car - should we stop driving? How big a nuclear device will fit into a semi-trailer? Shall we give up interstate commerce as well? No one is inspecting even a tiny fraction of modular freight containers that enter America's harbors by the millions every year - let's shut down all shipping as well. For that matter, when I was stationed in Korea, there were eighty pound back-pack tactical nukes that could be carried and emplaced by a single soldier. Better not let anybody walk around carrying anything, either.

Someone usually survives a train crash - very few people ever walk away from an airliner crash - and computerized fly-by-wire aircraft cannot and will not survive a burst of EMP. Every single aircraft within range will fall out of the skies like a ruptured duck, and they all have the glide characteristics of an anvil. Trains, OTH, will coast to a halt as will automobiles.

Absolutely nothing in America is terrorist-proof, period.

Meanwhile, the original question about the possible future and/or return of rail passenger service remains on the table. If the railroads do not take up the slack, and it appears to be the majority opinion on this forum is that they will not, then what will be the future of transportation in America? Are Americans simply going to stay home instead of traveling? How long before the airlines, who are openly dedicated to alienating the very passengers that insure their economic survival, go broke and stop flying? What takes their place?

Not so very long ago, there were many different airlines serving America, which was a major factor in the decline of other forms of public transportation. Now only a handful of airlines remain and they are struggling to survive. My best guess is that foreign airlines will take up the slack if we don't. Greyhound can barely maintain the sorry excuses for buses that are on the roads now - don't look to them to serve the public.

But I'm curious - trucks and modular containers have been fitted onto railroad flatcars for decades. There are auto-trains. What stops the development of a modular passenger unit that can be fitted to an existing flatcar body when needed and removed and replaced with freight when it isn't? A simple modular unit with seats and windows, some attachment hardware, power hook-ups and self-contained chemical toilets and viola` - passenger service at a fraction of the cost. Why can't passenger units such as that be part of a freight consist? It used to be done that way all the time. You could even pack the passengers into those discarded, broken down Greyhound buses, fix the toilets, and load those onto the flatcars.

Too bad I don't own a railroad - I don't see any of this as insoluble at all; I see it as one of the greatest opportunities in recent times. People just have to stop saying "we can't" and start doing.

It hard to imagine that we built the trans-continental railroads and opened up an entire continent. I guess Americans were a much different breed back then.
 

doctorwayne

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Canada, eh?
Absolutely nothing in America is terrorist-proof, period.

That's for sure!

Too bad I don't own a railroad - I don't see any of this as insoluble at all; I see it as one of the greatest opportunities in recent times. People just have to stop saying "we can't" and start doing.

I don't think that the problem is insoluble, but I think that the general public has yet to reach a point where they feel that the problem needs solving - I'm okay, Jack! is still the prevalent attitude.


It hard to imagine that we built the trans-continental railroads and opened up an entire continent. I guess Americans were a much different breed back then.

I think that's true, not just in America, but in all of what we'd call the developed world. The real entrepreneurs, risk takers, and "can-do" types are in the emerging industrial nations, where they're not yet stifled by government bureaucracy and a complacent populace.

Wayne
 

nkp174

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Let's not forget that the US (and Canada too, I think) is one of the few, if only, places in the world were you actually pay the cost it takes to provide fuel and highways. Europe keeps the prices artificially high (I checked last week...and figured out that gas was $15 per gallon in York!?!). In much of asia, the costs of cars (china, india, etc) is far too great for most people to really afford (although they do subsidize it to help their upper middle class afford cars)...and I'd bet the Japan's real estate situation renders parking to be off the charts expensive/impossible (again, Europe frequently has parking problems in the major cities).

The SP and the NYC were the only major railroads to claim to make money on passenger service. Losing the mail contracts really hurt the railroads too.

I recall a conversation about passenger service with a shortline operator...he grossed $1,000,000 with his steam excursions...and $40,000,000 on the freight side of things. The excursions were break even at best...despite the tourist draw in the region...and more importantly...they were a nuisance to his freight business.
 

Mountain Man

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Still, when a project is a mess it's a "Train Wreck" and not a "Plane Crash"

You mean because the expression was created prior to the invention of aircraft?

Personally, I don't use the expression "train wreck" to describe anything other than an actual train wreck. Being ex-military, my expressions of choice are either BOHICA, SNAFU or FUBAR - much more descriptive terms with greater depth and eloquence. :cool:
 

Mountain Man

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This is why I think someone needs to start thinking about alternative passenger service:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25592648/

The two most significant parts of the articles are:

a) the recent loss of eight airlines, and

b) dropping "unprofitable" routes to save operating expenses.

A lot of Americans do not live on a "profitable route", so what happens to them?
 

Dave1905

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May 27, 2007
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I also have a problem with the concept that a huge train traveling on a massive infrastructure is required to move people. Something as simple as a streetcar traveling on light rails can do it easily and cheaply - that same lightweight railcar, traveling on existing track from city to city is entirely possible, especially if the government stops subsidizing highway construction exclusively and begins to take responsibility for all of America's transportation needs.
And pray tell, where are you planning to find this long distance, city to city, existing "light rails" to run your lightweight rail cars on? Or are you proposing to appropriate private property to run it on the freight roads?

Dave H.
 

doctorwayne

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Sep 6, 2005
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Canada, eh?
I also have a problem with the concept that a huge train traveling on a massive infrastructure is required to move people. Something as simple as a streetcar traveling on light rails can do it easily and cheaply - that same lightweight railcar, traveling on existing track from city to city is entirely possible, especially if the government stops subsidizing highway construction exclusively and begins to take responsibility for all of America's transportation needs.
And pray tell, where are you planning to find this long distance, city to city, existing "light rails" to run your lightweight rail cars on? Or are you proposing to appropriate private property to run it on the freight roads?

Dave H.

No need to own the rails, they can just call it Amtrak Lite. ;):p:-D

Wayne
 

iis612

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And passenger aircraft have been used as guided missiles to destroy the World Trade Center, by terrorists who had zero difficulty learning to fly them right here in America. Currently, a large majority of passenger aircraft are maintained at service centers outside of America - why? Because labor is cheaper and there is no FAA oversight or inspection. That might be your idea of safe travel, but it isn't mine.

Terrorism is an entirely different subject. A nuclear device that will level an entire city can be fitted into a suitcase in the trunk of a car - should we stop driving? How big a nuclear device will fit into a semi-trailer? Shall we give up interstate commerce as well? No one is inspecting even a tiny fraction of modular freight containers that enter America's harbors by the millions every year - let's shut down all shipping as well. For that matter, when I was stationed in Korea, there were eighty pound back-pack tactical nukes that could be carried and emplaced by a single soldier. Better not let anybody walk around carrying anything, either.

Someone usually survives a train crash - very few people ever walk away from an airliner crash - and computerized fly-by-wire aircraft cannot and will not survive a burst of EMP. Every single aircraft within range will fall out of the skies like a ruptured duck, and they all have the glide characteristics of an anvil. Trains, OTH, will coast to a halt as will automobiles.

Absolutely nothing in America is terrorist-proof, period.

Meanwhile, the original question about the possible future and/or return of rail passenger service remains on the table. If the railroads do not take up the slack, and it appears to be the majority opinion on this forum is that they will not, then what will be the future of transportation in America? Are Americans simply going to stay home instead of traveling? How long before the airlines, who are openly dedicated to alienating the very passengers that insure their economic survival, go broke and stop flying? What takes their place?

Not so very long ago, there were many different airlines serving America, which was a major factor in the decline of other forms of public transportation. Now only a handful of airlines remain and they are struggling to survive. My best guess is that foreign airlines will take up the slack if we don't. Greyhound can barely maintain the sorry excuses for buses that are on the roads now - don't look to them to serve the public.

But I'm curious - trucks and modular containers have been fitted onto railroad flatcars for decades. There are auto-trains. What stops the development of a modular passenger unit that can be fitted to an existing flatcar body when needed and removed and replaced with freight when it isn't? A simple modular unit with seats and windows, some attachment hardware, power hook-ups and self-contained chemical toilets and viola` - passenger service at a fraction of the cost. Why can't passenger units such as that be part of a freight consist? It used to be done that way all the time. You could even pack the passengers into those discarded, broken down Greyhound buses, fix the toilets, and load those onto the flatcars.

Too bad I don't own a railroad - I don't see any of this as insoluble at all; I see it as one of the greatest opportunities in recent times. People just have to stop saying "we can't" and start doing.

It hard to imagine that we built the trans-continental railroads and opened up an entire continent. I guess Americans were a much different breed back then.

My mention of terrorism was not an attempt to stear this thread in another direction. I was loosely quoting information from the department of homeland security bulletins I have read.
To answer your question about air travel, no I don't feel that flying is safe. I didn't before 9/11 either.

I stand in agreement on most of your other points, especially where it comes to the government stepping up with funding, although I don't know where they would get it.
My original post stated that the big 4 RR's could work together to make an economically viable passenger system, and I would stand in line to take a trip if they did. I would also be willing to get involved in a campaign to get the government, and general society on board. Just don't let me be the public speaker as it seems I have a great ability to rub people the wrong way.
 

rekline

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Oct 20, 2006
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The biggest issue is time for train travel. If I take my family to Florida, it is about 24 hours car ride (Long and probably requires a rest stop). 24 hours by train but drops us off not at the most convenient location. Looking into using the Auto-train but that has difficulties from where we start. A plane is 3 hours flight time plus time spent for security. With a limited vacation time, I get 2 extra days for fun in the sun and that is why planes are so popular. The other problem That I have is the times Amtrak runs. To visit my parents, I have to pick up the train at really ridiculous hours 4:15 or so AM. Not really appealling. When time is limited, planes will rule, when it is the getting there, trains will dominate. If you had the EU's TGV system. That would make the trip by train far more appealing.
 

MasonJar

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Oct 31, 2002
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When time is limited, planes will rule

But only on the longer distances. Even the 1 hour plane ride from Ottawa to Toronto is beat by a train trip, and is similar for trips Ottawa to Montreal (<2 hours train vs 45 min air) or Toronto - Montreal (4 hours train/1+ hour air).

From my house to a fictional meeting in downtown Toronto:

By air:
Drive to airport drop-off - 30 minutes
Arrive 1 hour early for (self) check-in, security, etc - 1 hour
Board - 30 minutes
Flight - 1 hour
Drive from Pearson Int'l to downtown - up to 1 hour

Total - 4 hours


By train:

Home - train station - 10 minutes
Train trip - 4 hours
Station to meeting - 15 minutes

Total - less than 4.5 hours

So for a half hour extra, I get a meal, coffee, use of cellphone, laptop, a newspaper, the room to actually use all those things, plus room to walk around, and a great view to boot.

If you had the EU's TGV system.

Amen to that. The Canadian/provincial governments keep mentioning this for Southern Ontario and or Windsor (ON) to Quebec City (QC). But it never materializes. Could also work in NE US, California/West Coast, and/or one transcontinental line. But the cost of infrastructure always limits the discussions...


Andrew
 

Mountain Man

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I also have a problem with the concept that a huge train traveling on a massive infrastructure is required to move people. Something as simple as a streetcar traveling on light rails can do it easily and cheaply - that same lightweight railcar, traveling on existing track from city to city is entirely possible, especially if the government stops subsidizing highway construction exclusively and begins to take responsibility for all of America's transportation needs.
And pray tell, where are you planning to find this long distance, city to city, existing "light rails" to run your lightweight rail cars on? Or are you proposing to appropriate private property to run it on the freight roads?

Dave H.

Nope...and nope. I merely pointed out that the heavy infrastructure necessary to haul freight means nothing to running passengers. Light rail can run without problems on existing lines, contrary to all the nay-sayers who insist that no one will build the "massive infrastructure" needed for passenger service, and I see no reason why the railroad companies themselves could not operate it, since they should be able to make money at it.

I'm not a fan of seizing private companies, eminent domain or any of the other government crap that passes for leadership and problem solving in America today; on the other hand, I'm not very fond of watching my country go down the toilet while nobody does anything, either. But rather than sit around sharpshooting my ideas, let's see a few of yours that I can tear apart.