Shinohara 2XOver

Discussion in 'FAQs' started by rockislandmike, Jun 20, 2002.

  1. rockislandmike

    rockislandmike Active Member

    Installed my Shinohara doublecrossover on the layout, and now, oddly, if I stop a locomotive on the crossover - doesn't matter how the switches are positioned, or which track Im using - trains frequently come to a standstill, and have to be pushed to get going again.

    No big deal currently, as it's the END OF THE ROAD for now, but anyone else have this kind of problem??? I checked the underside of it b4 installing, and there didn't seem to be any connectivity problems, but I will trust the braintrust here to let me know what if anything I did wrong (or didn't do right :) )
  2. Gary Pfeil

    Gary Pfeil Active Member

    Michael, I've never used their double crossover, so can't speak from experience, but their regular turnouts are power routing, that is, the frogs get their power thru the points contact with the stock rail. Most modelers will place a microswitch or equivalent to make this connection more reliable. I suggest you use a 12 volt lamp to locate the dead sections of rail, then see what you can do to get power to it. I don't know how they arrainged the crossing frogs. Does the stall problem only occur while crossing over or does it happen on the straight thru routes also? It may be that you will have to live witha short section of dead rail at the frogs of the crossing. These shouldn't be a problem for operation if your locos (diesels) pick up power with all wheels. If they don't, the problem really is with the loco, not the track. Short wheelbase steam (0-4-0) usually have a problem on this type trackage. Modifying the tender to pick up from both rails (and wiring that to the loco) should help. 0-4-0 tank locos, well, I have no suggestion for those! Other than: don't use 0-4-0 tank locos on double crossovers! Actually, this is not bad advise, since a double crossover indicates a busy mainline where a tank loco wouldn't normally operate. Good luck, if you identify the problem but need help correcting it, post a drawing with various rails identified with numbers and I will try to help.

    Gary
  3. 60103

    60103 Pooh Bah

    Mike:
    My Wednesday night friend finally gave up on the double crossover after about 20 years and replaced it with a single. I don't know if it was Shinohara, but he never got the frog wiring to work right.
    It should be a simple matter of wiring through your switch machines.
    (I found a wiring diagram for an all-rail version in an old magazine. I couldn't understand it, then I read the next issue where they explained that there were an number of typos in the diagram and the letters were wrong.)
    Try using a test lead or jumper to feed power to what look like the dead sections while your loco is on it. Alternately, use the test lights to see what's dead.
    Check the rail gaps too. Some of these Xovers get really wierd collections of rails that are wired together.
  4. Vic

    Vic Active Member

    X-Over

    At one time Shinahora had a small booklet that addressed wiring problems. I had one but can't find it now so I must have loaned it out and it never came back. :( Maybe you can get in touch with them and see if they still have it available.

    I recall that it addressed the problem you are having and their solution called for power routing thru the auxillary contacts of double coil switch machines, possibly feeding the opposite ends of the Xover thru the aux. contacts.

    Maybe this will give you a "starting place":)
  5. rockislandmike

    rockislandmike Active Member

    Had to bite the bullet and pull the double-crossover up. :(

    As suspected, it looks like I'm going to have to do a lot of soldering to make this thing work. Don't know why they wouldn't have wired it logically to start with - for $80CDN or whatever I paid for this thing, gheessshhhhhhhh..............

    At any rate, now I have to learn soldering.........:(
  6. Woodie

    Woodie Active Member

    Peco double slip

    Mike,

    I put a Peco double slip in, and pretty much wired it as a seperate "block". I insulated it from ALL the rails leading to and from it. The Peco double slip comes with 4 wires attached to it. one each for the "outer rails" and one each for the "middle frogs" at each end. The "outer" rails are fine to wire up, as you just connect them to the power from the the rail that they join too. It wasn't really necessary to insulate the "outer" rails, but I did. The frogs are different however. I just put a Peco DPDT switch attached to the turnout motor to switch the polarity to whatever was the "leadin/out" rail of the applicable "inner" lead in/out rail. It took a while to understand exactly how it worked, but is quite logical when you finally work it out. A multimeter was invaluable in working the wiring out. A BIG point to make. The DPDT switch attached to/operated by the "LEFT HAND" end point motor is used to set the polarity for the "RIGHT HAND" end frogs and vice versa.

    The main problem I have now, is I still get the switching wrong, and end up derailing all the time!!! Remembering to switch the leadin side of the double slip to determine the leadout and/or getting the combinations of BOTH right, to ensure I end up coming and going to/from the right tracks always gets me confuddled!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    But the wiring is not a hassle, and I do not get any stalls or shorts. When you say you needed to give the loco a "push", what sort of push? and inch or so? or just a slight tap??.
  7. Gary Pfeil

    Gary Pfeil Active Member

    Woodie, I haven't used Peco double slips but have used Shinohara's. These only require wires on the two outside rails and you are ready to go, just as you state about the Peco's. Mike's double crossover is a totally different story tho. Double slips are at least fairly common in congested throat situations, double crossovers, well, I'm not sure how many of those were ever built. I think primarily a modelers idea. A railroad would rather build two regular crossovers and eliminate all the frogs required by the crossing. Anyway, I wanted to respond to your comments on the confusion of routing thru the doubleslip. I too had this problem, it is difficult to look at the thing and know which way it's thrown for! I use slow motion stall motor switch machines (tortoise and switch master). These use simple toggle switches to throw. I built a panel for my yard with a schematic drawing on top and a row of lettered toggles below. In my case, the double slip connects the receiving and departure tracks to either the mainline or switchlead. On the panel, the switch that controls routing to either the main or switchlead is labeled "main" above the switch and "lead" below. Likewise the other switch is labeled "rec" and "dep". I just throw the toggle handle to the route I want and go.

    Gary
  8. shamus

    shamus Registered Member

    I have used the Peco double slips on my friends British outline railroad, and all I used was a peco PL13 (SPST)switch which fits to the PL10 point motor and switches the frog in or out depending which way the point is thrown.

    Shamus
    [​IMG]
  9. rockislandmike

    rockislandmike Active Member

    Thanks guys. After contemplating it for the morning, since I have no soldering equipment, what I think I'm gonna do is just leave the double crossover out for now.

    From what I understand, they're not really prototypical anyways, and I have a single crossover not far down the track in one direction. So instead of the double crossover, I'll just buy a pair of Peco turnouts to make another crossover in the opposite direction. I much prefer the Peco turnouts anyways. I'll just have to figure out which ones are the largest I can install without tearing out more track..................

    Maybe I'll use the double crossover in my yard, might be more useful there anyways..............and since I probably won't start working on the yard till next spring anyways...........
  10. Woodie

    Woodie Active Member

    Double crossover

    I've also put a double crossover in as well as the double slip. (Garahbara has at least one of everything!:eek: ), so when it comes to the "proper" layout, I can say "done that" and learnt from mistakes.

    I made it up out of a diamond crossing and 4 turnouts. Again, I had insulation problems, but I was very new to the concept at the time, and probablywould not have those problems now. Also having to diverge the tracks from parallel makes it look a bit wonky, ("S" curve reasons) but I didn't know any better at the time either.

    It's a bit clackety to run over, cause of a few minor gaps in the joins, but I use it to "extend" my dual loop into a double loop when running a single set. (inside crossover to outside, crossover back to inside etc, getting two loops before going along the same track again!
  11. 60103

    60103 Pooh Bah

    Mike:
    I ride over double crossovers every day. Only thing is, they're in Toronto Union Station and they're not normal-- the switches are double slips. There are two ladder tracks in each direction (i.e. 4 ladders in all) that cross over all the platform tracks and approach tracks and where they meet there are double crossovers.
    I've seen plans that call for double crossovers at the crest of hump yards.
    Modern railroad practice seems to call for replacing diamond crossings with pairs of switches wherever possible. When CPR put a third track in at West Toronto, they used six single crossovers.

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