Seeking expert advice for my new 1880s layout.

Discussion in 'Track Planning' started by Will_annand, Feb 1, 2004.

  1. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Hi Will,

    Here is a neat link that I was just given in response to a question in the Logging Forum:

    Looks like they have some stuff that is suitable for your era. Among others, check the "Cabin Creek" series.

  2. shamus

    shamus Registered Member

    Hi Will,
    Would you by chance be putting in a logging line of some sort somewhere on your layout:cool: Now I could really go to town on a room the size you have. My room is 14X11:wave:

    Anyway, looks like you will be having some real fun starting the benchwork soon.

  3. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member


    Read it again, it says 4 nches x 42 inches. It was a joke. All I have so far are 22 pieces of used Code 100 track and 8 Mechano cars with Kadee trucks and couplers.

    The room if a 9'x11.5' alcove.


    Thanks for the link I will check it out.
  4. jon-monon

    jon-monon Active Member

  5. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Thanks Jon, love the site.
    Lots of great pictures of 4-4-0s.

    Only one problem (for me anyway) it is NE USA. :(
    I am modeling north of the Great Lakes. Oh well, I will keep looking for my specific info.

    But don't get me wrong Jon, I have book marked that site and will check it out more thoughly later. Always love old RR stuff.
  6. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Things are progressing on the old CVR. I know what 4-4-0s they used, the rolling stock/passenger fleet were standard gauge and typical of the time.

    What I am looking for now is track plans…

    Were there any passing tracks back then?
    Where were the sidings and why were they needed?

    I know the old Orangeville CVR yard is now under a McDonalds, but what were the facilities in Orangeville like?

    Any help would be appreciated.
  7. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Just updated the website, I now have "Track Plan version 1" up for your appraisal.

    This plan is for a point to point pseudo-prototypical plan coving Cheltenham, Sligo Junction, Forks of The Credit and Cataract.

    9.6 miles compressed into a 3' wide 9x11 "L"
  8. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Hi Will,

    Could not find anything on your layout page that resembles a L-shaped point-to-point. I really like the ideas for the modules that you sketched out.

    I am seriously considering the modular approach, and have joined up with the local club here ( ). My big plans (for way in the future, when I have won the lottery) include a modular layout of the Orangeville (CP) station circa 1925.

    That's interesting that you point out that the CV station was where the McDonalds now is. Do any of the historical societies or archives have pictures (I know you have probably looked already...)?

    When I was a kid living in Orangeville, tha land behind the McDonalds was vacant, and we used to dig in there, as it was one of the original town dumps. We found all kinds of interesting things, mostly old bottles and bits of china plates.

    The map threw me off a bit, as it shows the old alignment of Hwy 10 (coming into town as First Street, I think). Also your comment about the trestle being filled in near the old (CV???) station. This is obviously not the one I crossed near the Forks (or is it). Any more info?

  9. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Afternoon Andrew.

    Let's see which topic first?

    The Forks Of The Credit Trestle.
    Yes, it is the same bridge you walked over when you were a kid. it is still 85' high. When the trestle was first built by the CVR, it was 1146' long in a complete 90 degree arc. In 1884, the CPR brought in several train loads and filled in the trestle to its now approximately 400' length. (I have a photo on page 4 of the Prototype section).

    As to the Orangeville Station, there is one photo on Prototype Page 4 on my site.

    I took down the "L" plans. Changed my mind again. :D
    Latest plan is for 5'x3 then 3'x5.5' then 3'x5' in a "U" shape.
    Basic dogbone with 3-4 sidings. Forks and Cataract mainly. Sligo just a station and possibly narrow gauge cross track.

    Keep having to change as discussions with my wife continue. :thumb:
  10. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Those are some cool pictures - I must have missed page 4 before.

    I have seen that picture of the Orangeville station beofre - but it was labelled as the CP station (I guess that makes it the old TG&B) on Townline Road. This would be the station that immediately preceded the "witches hat" that was built in the 1920s when the yard was expanded and the 5 stall roundhouse added south of the station. The elevator looks like it is also in the right spot for this location.

    I have plans that would work for that timber overpass at Horseshoe Curve.

    That stub switch at Melville Junction is amazing! You hear about them all the time for backwoods logging, but it is rare (I think) to see one on such a "mainstream" railroad.

    All those culverts and so on are going to be fun to build!

    As for the negotiations with your wife - let me say good luck. I now have the run of our basement, which isn't saying much since it is a cellar in a 100 year old house. :rolleyes:

    There are a couple of good threads going on at Atlas and MR forums about old time locos that may interest you.

  11. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Re: Orangeville station.

    I think you are correct, that may be the old TG&B station.
    I have one of the "Witches Hat" and the caption puts it as CPR station in 1910.

    In the current apartment, the 9x11.5 alcove is in the living room.

    We have compressed the living room into a 9x12 area. We both think it looks good that way. But do we use all the 9x11.5 as model RR or is there room for a glider rocker and ottoman along with a steamer trunk full of crochet material?

    Hence the change to the 5x11.5 "U" layout.

    I will check out the atlas and MR forums.
    But if you check the "History" page under "VIII. Cars and Track" you will see the detailed chart on ALL 19 CVR locomotives.

    And yes, the little bridges and under crossings will be fun.

    I plan on using an open plan and am thinking on using a double roadbed system I have been thinking about.

    Have the benchwork open. Cut out plywood where the right of way would be. cut a series of "pillars" the width of the first roadbed and between 6-8" high, then cut out a copy of the first right of way and mount it on the pillars. Then put either cork or foam on top of the elevated roadbed and lay the track. This way the track is solid, and is always above "river" level. The ground could rise and fall as needed.

    Do you think this is a workable configuration?
  12. 60103

    60103 Pooh Bah

    I used that on my previous layout. The base was L-girder, with joists across and risers to support the roadbed. I only used homasote for roadbed (kept the sopports close together) and I hung scenery from the roadbed or supported it separately. (My scenery tends to have lots of flat areas, and wide flat yards.)
  13. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Hi Will,

    I pointed out the discussions in other forums (fora?) just in case you needed additional info as to what might be the best match for the CV locos.

    I used "cookie cutter" for my layout - that is trace the plan onto 1/2" plywood, and then cut and bend the plan to get the elevations desired. The grades and so on work themselves out since the 1/2" ply bends well. It is all supported on open grid. The elevations are supported by risers (pillars) that are attached to the cross members of the grid. I think you saw the thread with the mock-up of my layout. The advantage of this method is that all the large flat areas you want are all taken care of by the "remaining" pieces of plywood - they are all the right shape, and in the right place(s)!

    Even with only a single layer of 1/2 ply, plus the 1x4 open grid, this is getting pretty heavy. You might want to try layers of foam over open grid. The foam is surprisingly strong, but lightweight. You will need to get more info from others on this approach though - I have only used foam to make a small diorama... but it was enough to make me seriously rethink my benchwork :rolleyes: :D

    One word of caution - - keep the back of glider rocker away from the layout! ;)

  14. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    You are truly a wise man Andrew.

    Your quote:
    "One word of caution - - keep the back of glider rocker away from the layout!"

    You say that as if you have had experience in that area. :D

    Not sure if I saw your thread on benchwork or not, I will look for it. Thanks.

    I think that I will use plywood and cork or foam for the roadbed. but use foam supported screen or cloth for the scenery. I just have to make sure the framework is strong. To my way of thinking it will only be moved once. From this apartment to the RR room in the new house (whenever we can get one :confused: )

    I have been checking out the Atlas and MR forums, lots of good information about the rolling stock there.

    I also found a Yahoo Group, "Bruce Railways" which covers the area I intend to model. Not sure yet if anyone there knows about history, because they seem to be railfans talking about what happened last week. :D

    Anyway, still doing layout and prototype research.
    Thanks again.
  15. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Thanks David, will do.

    Lots of support. I know we want the roadbed solid.
  16. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    No, but part of my real job is risk management! Really ;)

    Here it is. You must have seen it, 'cuz you replied... :D It is called How to visualize your landscape.

    There is a guy (Ray Breyer - goes by orsonroy) on those forums who has a lot of info on steam, mostly concentrating on the USA, but it's still useful to us too.

    I found those guys too. I have yet to post anything. Signed up when I first got into thinking about the Orangeville CP yard as a modular project, but there only seems to be a history thread pop up every now and then.

    Well, this is lots of fun, and I hope that I am helping... The Gauge is a great place to get all sorts of useful info - I just hope my ramblings fit into that category! :)

  17. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Oh yes, any comment is a help.

    I remember your thread now, your layout is all printed RTS and silly putty. A diiferent looking layout for sure. :D

    I left a message on the Yahoo Bruce RR forum and got a list of books and two sites to visit:

    “Credit Valley Railway – The Third Giant” by James Filby (Boston Mills Press 1974),

    "Steam Trains Through Orangeville" by A. M. McKitrick (Boston Mills Press 1976),

    "Steam Trains to the Bruce" by Ralph Beaumont (Boston Mills Press 1977),

    "Running Late on the Bruce" by Beaumont and Filby (Boston Mills Press 1980)

    "The Ontario and Quebec Railway" by Donald M. Wilson (Mika 1984) - pp 41 to 48

    "Hamilton's Other Railway" by Charles Cooper (Bytown Railway Society 19xx)

    Only problem is, all but the last book are out of print and the last one is $90.00 with a note:

    "Though its focus is the Hamilton & North Western, it has numerous references to CVR as H&NW crossed that company's lines in both Milton and Inglewood."

    Well, I think $90.00 to see if the track plan for inglewood is included is a little steep right now for me. :D
  18. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Hi Will,

    I was just having a read over at BruceRys and it occured to me that the plans for the Orangeville CVR station might be on file with Orangeville. Since the towns were so involved, and it was a bit of a bureaucratic era, the plans or proposals might still be around somewhere. Maybe start with Orangeville Planning Department, then maybe to Ontario archives, or even national archives.

    If you get to the archives stage, the guys at Bytown might be able to help, but you could also try the Ottawa Railway Historical Circle & Colin Churcher (see ). He gave us an excellent presentation on how to find things in the archives and other sources, so he might be able to help you, if not with specifics, at least with guidance on using these sources (if you need such help).

    One thing I have noticed, and you probably have too, is that a lot of the info on the web confuses the "main" Orangeville station with what you are looking for. It doesn't even occur to people that there was another. The "witches hat" and predecessors would technically be the TG&B station, but it is often referred to as the old CVR station/yard. Interesting...

    I will keep an eye out for the books - we now have three used book stores in Kemptville. Seems a bit much for a town of only a few thousand people... Doubt they will show up here, but you never know!

  19. Will_annand

    Will_annand Active Member

    Thanks Andrew, I have a busy weekend with MMRC down at the Barrie Train Show. I will check it out next week.

    Seems all I need now are the track lans for Inglewood (I have a lead there) and Orangeville.

    Then I will have "Phase 01" Cheltenham to Orangeville complete.
  20. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    I wonder if there are any guesses as to what would be at the CVR Orangeville "yard". Since it is the end of the line, are there any standard things that one might find?

    My uneducated guesses might include:

    - a station (duh... :rolleyes: )
    - several tracks, including a run-around arrangement
    - a turntable
    - some sort of engine house and servicing facilities (water, coal) etc...

    This is just me thinking out loud... When I do, I usually look like this --:confused:

    Have fun at the show. Wish I was going...! :D


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