pzkw 3,4,5,6

Discussion in 'Armory & Military' started by Tirta, Jun 17, 2006.

  1. MacHine13of13

    MacHine13of13 Member


    My son would prolly say more than I could.

    Try "To Hell And Back; The Audey Murphey Story", "Thye Guns Of Navarone", "Anzio", "The Great Raid", "D-Day-The Sixth Of June", "Decision Before Dawn", "The Longest Day", "Patton", "Band Of Brothers", Saving Private Ryan", The Bridge At Remagen", "Force 10 From Navarone", "The Battle of the Bulge", "A Bridge Too Far", "The Dirty Dozen" and "The Big Red One" should help you with what you are after. The are a few that deal with the "Afrika Campaigns", but I don't know them well. If memory serves me well, there was one more about Rommel.

    Are you wanting to see them for reference? If so, try some of the PC games, like Codename Panzer series, Africa Corps vs Desert Rats, ect.

    Don't forget, there were good TV shows that used tanks... Rat Patrol and War (I think my mother-in-law mentioned).
  2. charliec

    charliec Active Member

  3. charliec

    charliec Active Member

  4. charliec

    charliec Active Member

    Add a new model to the original list:

    WAK - 1/25 Tiger(P) - recent release

    For those who don't know what a Tiger(P) is - Porsche built a number of hulls of the competitor of the Henschel tank which became the Tiger. Most of the Porsche hulls were converted into the Ferdinand SPG. However there were a few built as tanks - the Tiger(P). Mostly these were used for testing but one was sent to the Russian front where it was used as a command vehicle for a formation of heavy SPGs.


  5. Cap'n Dade

    Cap'n Dade New Member

    Howdy folks,
    I've been a lurker forever, but had to jump in here on a few points. Please excuse the length (what a way to make a first post LOL). ;-)

    Re: movies featuring Panzer IIIs and IVs, "Thye Guns Of Navarone", "Anzio", "The Great Raid", "D-Day-The Sixth Of June", "Decision Before Dawn", "The Longest Day", "Patton", The Bridge At Remagen", "Force 10 From Navarone", "The Battle of the Bulge", "A Bridge Too Far", "The Dirty Dozen" and "The Big Red One" are NOT movies you want to see for reference. Mainly because in nearly all of these movies, all of the tanks, no matter which side is depicted, are M48 Pattons (a vehicle that appeared long after the war).

    In a sense this is kind of a funny wink from the directors when in the movie, "Patton", the Germans, Americans, and British are all using the same exact tank named after Patton himself. Ya gotta love the part in "The Battle of The Bulge" when the German weapons officer brags about the new King Tiger and unveils... you guessed it, a Patton.

    Some movies, like "Kelly's Heroes" (my favorite WW2 movie) actually feature T-34s made to look like German tanks. The Tigers in the final sequence are all T-34s. They have turrets that look like Tigers, but one look at the roadwheel configuration and it's all over.

    "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers" are similar in that they do the same thing- use surplus T-34s and make them look like German tanks. The exception is the Marder that blows away the tower that the sniper is in. For that, I believe they bought a Swedish G-13 (Swedish version of the Hetzer Jagdpanzer 38(t)) and converted it to look like a Marder III. Saving Private Ryan is mindnumbingly innacurate on a number of points about German ops and equipment. A big example off the top of my head is when the guy sticks the machine gun against the driver's port and fires into the Tiger. Bzzzzt! WRONG. The Tiger's driver's port contained six (!) layers of armored glass and was impervious to anything under 20mm. In real life, Captain Miller would have been killed from his own bullets ricocheting back into him.

    Re: the Tiger (P), chassis No. 003 was made into a command vehicle used on the Eastern Front for Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653. For more info (and tons of photos) on the 653rd, check out "Combat History of Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653" released by JJ Fedorowicz publishing. This battalion used Ferdinands (later converted to Elefants) and finally Jagdtigers, so they had a lot of heavy, prestige weaponry. Reading the book with statements of people who actually used these vehicles, you find out that contrary to what many armchair generals and quasi-historians say, the Elefant and Jagdtiger were excellent vehicles when deployed properly.

    True enough about the Wehrmacht calling the Sherman, "Ronson". But they more often called them "Tommy Cookers"... ;-)

    A point about the Panzer IV's inability to carry anything larger than the KwK 40 L/48- before the war, some Russians came to visit the German tank works. They couldn't believe that the Panzer IV was the biggest tank in Germany's arsenal ("THIS is your 'heavy tank'?")and were shocked that the Germans regarded the Panzer III as their main battle tank. In fact, the Russians accused the Germans of hiding their "real" tank strength, but were assured otherwise and eventually left satisfied. In 1941, after encountering the T-34 and KV-1 & 2, Guderian understood why the Russians asked the questions they did and why they were satisfied when convinced that Germany possessed nothing on the scale of the then-secret T-34 and KV series.

    Regarding "Schurzen", Tirta, it's okay to say "skirts" or "aprons" since that's all "schurzen" means. After all we don't use the German word "kannone" when talking in English about a "cannon" or large "gun". ;-) Charlie you're right in that schurzen weren't introduced to the Panzer III until Ausf. L.

    There are a ton of books out on Panzers (I have a room dedicated to most of them LOL), but some nice little reference books are Ian Allen's "Tanks In Detail" series. They cover the Panzer III through VI as well as the Jagdpanzers (Panzers made to destroy tanks and built with armored casemates instead of turrets to carry larger guns in in a tough, low profile form), are cheap and a nice size to fit in your work area. They have nice drawings and photos. Internet sites are good, but sometimes you need a book thanks to the ease of use of having it in your work zone.

    Speaking of Jagdpanzers, somebody said that the Panzer IV didn't carry anything larger than the KwK 40 L/48. While true for the turret tank, the Jagdpanzer IV Lang carried the L/70 which was a developed version of the Panther's gun. I've built one in plastic and photos can be found here (scroll to the middle of the page):

    The rule of thumb for Jagdpanzers are they carry the main gun of the next numbered tank's turret gun. In other words:
    Sturmgeschutz III Ausf. G and later versions of the F/8 (not technically a Jagdpanzer, but used as such) carried the 75mm StuK 40 L/48 developed from the Panzer IV's gun.
    Jagdpanzer IV Lang carried the KwK 42 L/70, developed from the Panzer V Panther's gun (mainly without muzzel brake that was removed by crews).
    Jagdpanzer V Jagdpanther carried the KwK 43 L/71 used by the Panzer VI Tiger II and the Jagdpanzer VI (P) Ferdinand and Elefant.
    Jagdpanzer VI Jagdtiger carried the KwK 44 L/55 128mm gun that was to be used on some versions of the experimental Maus monster tank (although the Maus was planned to eventually carry a 150mm gun). The Maus was Panzer VIII, and Panzer VII would have been the Löwe ("Lion") but since further work was done on the Maus and E-100, the upgunned numbers skip a version in the case of the Jagdtiger.

    Charlie, you may be interested to know that the name "Guderian's Ente" wasn't really used all that much. I've talked with four different Jagdpanzer IV veterans (from four different vehicles) who have said they never even heard of that term in wartime (one said he never heard it at all until I brought it up). They seemed to think it was something likely said by a few people and then took a life of its own in popular history. But for their part, the name meant nothing. This isn't the first time this has happened. "Blitzkrieg" was a term thought up by an American journalist writing for Time magazine- it did not originate with the German army. Sturmpanzer IV Brummbar wasn't referred to as such by their crews, who actually called it "Stupa". And so on...

    Last but not least, regarding paint schemes, an excellent article by the experts Jentz and Doyle on paint schemes can be found here:

    ((deep breath)) And with that wandering and needlessly verbose dissertation about Panzer minutiae, I'll disappear back into lurking mode. Thanks to growing up in Maryland, home to Aberdeen Proving Ground, and my father having a lot of friends in the professional armor modeling industry, it's safe to say this stuff is in my blood. Cheers!
  6. charliec

    charliec Active Member

    What a post!!

    That's what I like about this group - there are people that are real experts.

    O.k. - perhaps you can shed some light on the discussion about the aerial
    on the Panzer III. It clearly can fold back to get out of the way of the gun when the turret rotates. There is a trough on the rear hull for the aerial to
    slot into (also on the early Panzer IVs). My question is:

    Did the crew have the ability to move the aerial from inside the tank, i.e.
    fold it down when going into action or did the aerial just get pushed over by the turret rotation? If it was the second option the crew presumably had to
    reset the aerial when it was safe to do so.


  7. MacHine13of13

    MacHine13of13 Member

    Dade and Forum,

    As I stated, "My son would prolly say more than I could."; however, no one bothered to answer, and "That's Hollywood" for you.

    I recall that the first time that I saw "Guns Of Navaronne" (about 8 and without a faternal parental figure for most of that time), being SHOCKED that the "Nazi" truck had a "DODGE" tailgate...

    I'm sure there had to be some good German propaganda movies, too, as well as Brit and Italian versions that would have done more good, but rightly, I don't know any.

    But, then, too... maybe... just maybe... Hollywood was taking "license" with the idea of "booty" tanks?

    Either way, enjoyed that instructive post; what of "experimental" tanks, especially IJA types, of which no one ever comments on? Anyone ever see any Japanese tank paper models?

  8. charliec

    charliec Active Member

    There are very few models of IJA armour. I can think of only 2 in 1/25:

    GPM 1/25 Type 95 Ha-Go light tank - this is an old model long out of print but I've seen it on eBay.

    Maly Modelarz 1/25 Type 2 Ka-Mi amphibious tank - again long out of print but turns up on eBay occaisonally.

    I think Yoshidom has a 1/72 IJA tank (might be a Type 97 Chi_Ha from memory).

    I agree that IJA armour has been almost completely ignored.


  9. Cap'n Dade

    Cap'n Dade New Member

    Wow, coming out of lurker mode twice in the same day. A record for me. lol Note that I joined this site in January of 2005 and it took me until today to post something! ;-)

    Charlie, that's a really good question and one that has me scratching my head as it's something I never really thought about. After some book scouring, it seems that the main purpose of the tray for the aerial is to protect it during transport. The tray is called "Antenneschutzschiene" which means "antenna protection rail". Apparently, the aerial, while stiff, was flexible enough that it could bend under the gun during turret rotation. But during transportation, the crew would lower the aerial into the Antenneschutzschiene from the tank's exterior and then raise it again after getting to where they needed to go. Thus, in battle, the aerial is raised.

    This would explain why no such device exists on later vehicles like the Tiger and Panther, as these vehicles had aerials that were removed from their base and kept in stowage containers during transport.

    Just for laughs, I checked the interior of GPM's Panzer III and only found a small box on the inside where the antenna line passes through (part 36). This would also seem to indicate that there was no internal device for raising and lowering the aerial (GPM's Panzer III interior is actually pretty accurate).

    Sorry I can't be more conclusive, but it's been ages since I've seen the interior of a Panzer III in person, and as I said, it wasn't something I was really thinking about- but I am now!

    Mac, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off like I didn't understand your intent. I actually just thought it fun to mention the proliferation of Pattons that, according to Hollywood, were running amok in WW2 and apparently being used by all countries.

    Re: the "Nazi Dodge", if it would've been a Ford, it would have been more historically accurate as Ford of Germany (Ford Werke AG) produced a lot of stuff for Germany during the rearmament. In fact, Henry Ford received the Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle from Hitler for service to the Third Reich. This was the highest party prize a foreigner could get.

    I have to say that while I find some of the IJA's vehicles interesting, I've pretty much tried to keep my armor interests (and diminishing brain power) to German stuff- although I'm really interested in the IJN during the Russo-Japanese War. I made a humorous animated short about the RJW:

    Okay, that's enough outta me. I'll try not take another year and a half before posting again! :)
  10. Jim Nunn

    Jim Nunn Member


    I for one will be greatly disappointed if you do not continue to post. Great info thanks to you and Charlie you have answered the antenna question that I have been asking for years.

    Jim Nunn
  11. Amazyah

    Amazyah Senior Member

    Here Here!

    I second that motion!

    Don't be a stranger Dade!

    Although you have been a member for over a year and a half... Welcome!

  12. MacHine13of13

    MacHine13of13 Member

    Charlie, Dade, Russell, Greg, Others,

    Thanks for the new info. With that info, I can start focusing in more.

    Seems we are very blessed to have Dade expressing his Armor understanding and background. <Toast to him for sharing> Hope you'll continue...

    Psst, Charlie, been at this long, eh? <chuckle> Now, I figure we can tap you for clues on where what might be...

    This forum is the only one that I patronize and I keep learning (must not be too old: lmao)

    Thanks for the smiles!

    Maybe Friday, I'll actually get a chance to start warping others good projects and see if my eyesight and motor skills co-operate. The worst part will be deciding what to try to assemble first... I'm thinking the GPM Titanic Diorama, which I figure will possibly interest the artist in my 19 year old son.
  13. charliec

    charliec Active Member

  14. Tirta

    Tirta Member

    Hi MacHine13of13, Charlie, Dade

    Wow, thanks for those very informative replies,
    especially to Dade for his unbelievable awesome post.

    So there is no real german tank at all in all hollywood movies?
    This fact is unbeleivable.

    Best regards,

  15. rickstef

    rickstef Guest

    Why is that unbelievable, I seriously doubt that Hollywood went out after the Second World War, and asked the Allies, can we buy some german or italian tanks, so we can have accurate war movies?

    Plus I think alot of them were in such a state of disrepair after the war, that trying to salvage them and rebuild them would be cost prohibitive.

    I can see it now, instead of 9 dollars for a movie ticket, it will be 20 or more a ticket, in order to pay for all those tanks.

  16. MacHine13of13

    MacHine13of13 Member


    Thanks for those links...

    I, personally enjoy the challenges that the translators cause in deciphering the various sites. (I had one small phrase that gave 3 vary different explainations with 4 translators). And, then you toss in the dialects... LOL

    I have always thought that the Europeans (esp. english speaking) are blessed on that, because they are more easily interactive with other language structures.

    Tirta, while I agree with Rick concerning the idea of Hollywood trying to take costs into account, I at the same time, have to strongly disagree with him concerning the authenticity of "WAR" movies.

    My reason for such a disagreement is that the US military does/has aided in making various movies and as Dade pointed out, they have studied the various equipment and have held onto examples of same-said equipment, so it should have been even more accessible to the film makers that wished for accuracy, even if the dupes were more readily available.

    I do agree, though, they would have had to move that equipment from where it was to the filming location, which would make it costlier, but I don't believe as prohibitive, you just would have had to do a good amount of editting to get 10 tanks on the field.

    My concern is that with today's special computer-generated effects (stands full of people, as example), why there is still not a film made with "honest" equipment.

    I might be mistaken, though, but how many films (American-made) have you seen with Brits, French, Canadians, Austrailians, ect. manning a Centurion, Charron D, AC-1, ect? I'd say that almost everyone knows of the Sherman because of sear numbers and the fact that everyone loves the underdog.

    Again, "That's Hollywood!"?

    However, I think this thread was due to Tirta asking about various Germen tank types. No one has mentioned that the Germans made use of captured equipment. Example, the PzKpfw B-2 740(f), PzKpfw B1 (f) Fahrschulewagen, Flammwagen PzKpfw B-2 (f), and the 105 mm leFH18/3 (Sf) auf Geschützwagen B-2(f) , which were all based on France's Bataille B1 and it's variants.

    Seems we and the model creators could have way more models to work with, time allowing... LMAO

  17. charliec

    charliec Active Member

    The use of captured equipment by the Wehrmacht was forced on them simply because German industry didn't have the productive capacity to supply enough tanks. The cost and complexity of the supply and maintenance effort required to keep foreign armour running didn't seem to be an issue with the Wehrmacht.

    Russian armour was also very attractive to the Wehrmacht - they had units with captured T-34s on the Russian front. The T-70 light tank was used
    as an infantry support tank by at least one Wehrmacht infantry division.

    Even the humble British Universal carrier (aka Bren carrier) was recycled as tank hunter with a bunch of panzerschreck (sp?) strapped on the top of the hull.

    The German term for captured tanks is "beutepanzer". There is a site http://beute.pz1.ru/ which explores this topic.


  18. MacHine13of13

    MacHine13of13 Member

    I guess that the bottom line is that neccessity is the mother of "invention", and I guess that a majority of the ex-german tanks when recycled became automobiles, and with the idea of the Volkswagon already in place, that the post-war VW was a "bullet-proof" car, as was the Jeep. They both are expressions of "K.I.S.S."; LMAO

    Did the aircraft industries do like-wise? I guess the "Bird Dog" could be said to be derived due to the Stortch (spelling?).

  19. shrike

    shrike Guest

    Yes and no.
    Maintaing aircraft is inherently trickier than armoured vehicles, but there are quite a few exceptions.

    The Germans captured quite a few aircraft intact in the Anschluss and the fall of France. Some of them were used by the Luftwaffe as trainers or in secondary roles (the Avia 534 springs to mind, with Ripper's very nice repaint floating around out there somewhere). French MS406's were transferred to the Finns, and just about everything with cargo carrying capability was pressed into service somewhere.
    The Luftwaffe also maintained Bergebatallionen (salvage batallions) that harvested wrecked aircraft throughout Europe. Check out Strangers in a Strage Land Vol2 from Squadron. A lot of late war Messerschmidts were made of aluminium salvaged from the B-17's that littered the landscape through 1943.
    The RAF also impressed just about anything that could fly into service for transport and liason use. In fact the RAF operated a small fleet of Bf108's they had purchased before the war.

    Anothe odd little sidebar to the war was the economic an practical use of neutral third parties. On more than one ocassion Lufthansa, BOAC PanAm and United shared or traded parts at the airport in Stockholm.

    The Stinson O-49/L-1 WAS designed to meet the Storch's performance, but was badly delayed in development. The L-19 was a post-war follow-up of the war time L-series aircraft, which were all civilian plane designs converted for "stop-gap" military use.
  20. paper warrior

    paper warrior Member

    The germans actually used a mathematical equation to name their tank's guns.

    L/x=times bigger the length of barrel to caliber

    The barrel of the 50mm L60 KwK 39 was 3000mm long.
    Go figure.:rolleyes:

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