Paper Tank Turrets: Best Method to Make it Round??

Discussion in 'Armory & Military' started by MilanX3, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    There is no easy way with Computer Aided Design. With it you can design anything. That's why it takes long to become good at it, but there are different levels of good. SO, no, there is no quick way other than buying it and diving in head first. :)
  2. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Ah yes, I also learned to ride a bike poorly the same way! :) Zath, are you a graphic artist by trade in that case? If not, how much $ and time did you put in to get to the point where you could use Rhino as you wanted to make the models you imagined?

    What does Rhino do over a program like Gimp, Gimp being free mind u.

    What I have done last week is to make a playdoh type base turret for the Lowe that is now being dried out. I am going to try a mache recipe I found on youtube to see if it will work properly with this small mould. Then I may use it or do the cut out and scan that was suggested before. If it doesnt come out properly, I will likely look into Rhino as I am thinking of going into original design for some models that currently do not exist, mostly modern Russian, French and World of Tanks stuff. As well, Rhino might be a good program to know if I ever invest in one of those 3D printers!

  3. Hi-Torque

    Hi-Torque Member

    Hi Rich,

    Awww Man! I totally forgot to give your turret a try. I offered to help you "next door" a couple of weeks ago. I am such a bad person :cry:

    But, I see not much has changed, there is only so many ways to skin a cat.

    Have a look at the little Star Trek diorama I made (err sorry I have not uploaded that one here yet the caps, sorry BUSSARD COLLECTORS on the forward parts of all of the warp engine nacelles are half spheres made with just 3 pieces.

    Why don't you download the model, and play around with those could with a compass, vary the width of the strips adding more if needed to build the sphere you want. Then when its perfect, scan the parts and your ready to texture or whatever.

    Not that I would presume to answer for Zathros, but Rhino differs from Gimp in that you design, develop and export 3D shapes. Other programs that you may wish to look at are Sketchup, Blender and (not a design tool exactly) Pepekura.

    One of the things that are charming about your work that you have shown us so far is the simple yet convincing to the eye approach you have taken. I do not think you should stray to far from this formula.

    Kind Regards,

  4. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hello Cris,

    Thank you for your detailled response. I will certainly look at your Star Trek diorama and see if I can come up with any ideas from the models there. I think the Entreprise class ships offer alot of tools as they have many rounded edges and would need a great modeller to maintain the proper shape. Indeed the Discs on the Entreprises vary slightly, and would be an interesting challenge, Entreprise A, B, C, D and E all have different shapes, but keep the same building challenge. Thanks for your input, and yes, I will try to keep it simple in order to get more people into the hobby. With many younger people not modelling at all, but playing games, a model from a game they like that can be made simply in 2 hours would get alot of interest.


  5. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    I don't understand this part of your statement: " but Rhino differs from Gimp in that you design, develop and export 3D shapes"

    Are you saying Rhino is for designing, developing, exporting, 3D shapes? Rhino is a very strong 2D drawing tool also, one of the best available. Rhino also does textures. The "Spiderman" movies were done with Rhino,as are Nike sneakers and too many other things to list that go from what could be called artistic to mechanical. I don't see how Pepkura could even be in the same list as Rhino as Pepakura is a drawing tool for unfolding models with sharp edges. I have seen some incredible work with Pepakura, but you could not design a real boat, house, or airplane with it.
    I earlier made a suggestion of making a play-doh shape and using wet paper and trying to do a shape that ways but this is where paper modeling's weakness is, the compound curve problems.

    I am in the process of purchasing Rhino 5.0. I am self taught, I cannot calculate the time or money as I was a machinist for many many years and I draw on many different areas to do what I do.

    You say you have no CAD experience. Gimp is not CAD. There is no comparison. You will have to understand something about CAD before I can discuss it with you. There is no common ground. That is why this thread goes inc circles. If you want to make something that able to be reproduced by others, you will have to settle for the well established limitations. You will not come up with any magic method. A smooth compounded surface will have to be sanded into that shape and u will have to use filler of some sort. The method that Lehcyfer posted will still have you end up with lines that you will either settle for, of have to fill in. There really is no difference. Using lacquer and a whole lot of other chemicals, then flattening out a paper shape that has compounded curves will still leave you with cuts and creases and the same problem. Paper purism has nothing to do with it as you can make the filler from a paper pulp. This thread is circular and nothing comes from it as this is an old issue and has been beaten to death. There is nothing new in this thread except questions from someone who has never used a CAD program, and another that does not understand the limitations. Compound curves can be be made up to a point, but that's about it. You won't make an egg out of paper and have it as smooth unless you sand it smooth.
  6. Hi-Torque

    Hi-Torque Member

    Hello Zathros,

    I was using the simplest comparison of the two programs, because he had no prior CAD experience.

    Yes of course Rhino is a multi purpose program...well no reason to blather on.

    I have used several modeling program's over the years and there is a steep learning curve. This is why I encouraged Milan to explore an existing model to see how the sphere was developed.

    Sorry for the confusion, I should have kept my mouth shut.

    Kind Regards,

  7. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Please do not keep anything shut, I appreciate your input. This thread is about discussing various methods for various skill levels, some are more practical than others depending on experience. I see I can learn different programs or do it by hand, the purpose is to keep it simple and I appreciate all input, it has been useful and continues to be. This will help new or inexperienced modellers as well to get into paper modelling instead of playing video games all day. Thanks to all who have commented.

  8. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    I agree, keep your opinions flowing. I agree with the steep learning curve with CAD programs. As I had to learn a couple of programs, I found Rhino3D to be the most intuitive. That is why I recommend it so much. Anybody with a student I.D. or a child with a student I.D. can get it for $170 dollars and it is a fully working version of the software that can be worked for commercial reasons.

    The reality is the subject matter and the material being used. The software package will do nothing if the material does not lend itself to being bent that way. :)
  9. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    True enough indeed Zath. I am unsure if my paper hobby warrants the investment at this point. I know there are differences between the applications, but whatever I can do on the cheap would be a good starting point.

    In any case, I have gone through a simple method this weekend, making a master shape out of the playdoh material. It hardened a bit and I made a mould out of tinfoil using the master. I made some paper mache paste, not sure if i did it properly and tried a mash with paper towel technique I saw online. When it dries i'll see what comes of the result. Trying different techniques until I get something acceptable.

    In the meantime I look forward to Hi-Torque's attempt at the turret...mostly I am encouraged by other people's examples to create curved objects in paper, as difficult or as precise it may be while being very conscious of it's limitations. I plan to practise curved shapes on some airplanes...always the greatest challenge!

  10. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    Problem with Play-Doh is it cracks when it dries. I would use a two part epoxy. This stuff is machinable, sand able, pain-table, and can be drilled and tapped!

    This stuff is available, or in some similar form, worldwide. Actual parts can be made for smaller parts and just used as the are. I am not a paper purist. The notion bothers me to be honest. If you want a model that people are going t print and pull together, and compounded radii will always be a compromise, that is fact. Balsa wood always works god for these parts as it takes paint well, is easy to sand, can be built up, and is believable when done. :)

    Please, to all, keep posting your opinions, but be specific. Differentiate between materials, subject mater, software, and objectives, and means to that end. It makes for a better discussion.
  11. Hi-Torque

    Hi-Torque Member

    Hello Rich,

    Looking back through the thread, it seems like you are asking for a simple easy to reproduce sphere for the AK-130 and a similar approach for the turret on the Lowe tank.

    In about an hour I made this little prototype (I worked until the champagne ran out :). I chose to quickly cobble this together to see if it is similar to what you are searching for.

    Should a sphere developed in this manner work for you then when you scale it up (considerably! Its about 1:200 now) you can add tabs which will ease the transition between the rings. Also, obviously the barrels and (I think that's what it is) the commander's cupola can be much better fleshed out.

    Kind Regards,


    Attached Files:

  12. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    We are talking about making more "organic" turrets, like the cast or forged ones one the Soviet era tanks. The attached picture explains it better. :)

    Attached Files:

  13. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Thanks so much Cris, that is a good example of a technique I wished to see...I learned alot from it, thank you so much..its just want I wanted on this thread!
  14. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Any techniques are welcome, I find it all helps, especially with limitations to curved pieces when doing paper modelling. What is the technique in the pic above? Rhino3D method? Is there a way to print out the pieces for the turret ona one page to ready it for construction?
  15. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    If you would like to print out a turret, it will be a fictional one, I will make one for you. The above pictures are the strips in order of assembly. The fat one is the top, the thinner ones go one next, edge to edge. You would put pieces on the inside to hold them edge to edge. Try this one, if you wish. The one picture shows how it goes together, the others are set 1, 2, 3, 4 from top to bottom. 1's ion the strips attach to the "1" at the end of the curve 2's to 2's. etc. They are meant to go edge to edge to the other rings. The top flat piece defining the shape. Glue to ends edge to edge, use a piece of paper on the inside to give them something to stick too. If you take each ring, and can use a ball bearing to roll it to give it a slight Radii, you might get yourself a pretty organic shape. Good Luck!

    Attached Files:

  16. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Thank you so much Zath...I will certainly give it a all I have to do is find that ball bearing I know is somewhere in this place!
  17. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    A pencil eraser will work, just roll it on something rubbery, like a building mat.
  18. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    If you come up with a shape, especially one that has good views I can work off of, I would try and make a plan for you. There is a limitation. You will have to cut and adjust for sure fitting.
  19. lehcyfer

    lehcyfer Member

    You can see here how I made an otherwise flat ringed cowling more rounded.
    Here is the same cowling without rounding.

    I was using the rounded end of my Olfa AK-3 knife like this:
    The black surface is the underside of my mousepad (it is some kind of rubbery foam). After I gave shape to the pieces I glued rings together on touch and then I again used the rounded stick to shape the glued together cowling on my cutting mat which is harder than the surface I was forming the rings on.
  20. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    Excellent! If the same technique is applied to the template I provided, similar results could be achieved, though one would have to know when to go straight and when to apply the radius. I would be willing to create more templates for shapes wanted in needed. I would need the opening at the bottom and some other dimensions to reference to. There I can extrapolate. If there need be openings. Those can be made quite easily as long as the shapes and their dimensions are provided, as well as location. Applying the technique that lehcyfer did is what is needed to achieve thee shapes. You wouldn't be able to print out a shape and think you will end up with this kind of beautiful compounded surfaced shape. This was the logical end of this discussion. Creating some turrets would be nice, but the wold have to be specific to a model. If you are going to sell the model, count me out. If you sell it afterwards, I will hunt you down! I have made man parts for many people but arrangements, not necessarily monetarily either, have been made first. :)

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