Oh, I SO have a gripe!

Discussion in 'Zealot Archives' started by lancer525, Oct 13, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. lancer525

    lancer525 Member

    Gentlemen (and Ladies, if any!)

    Please forgive me, but I have got a HUGE head of steam to blow off here. This forum has been one of the single greatest resources I have ever seen for info, tips, tricks, models, and general knowledge. Period. :thumb:

    Having said that, the gripe I have is that when one asks a very specific, carefully-worded question, everyone and his brother then answers every other #^&@! question that wasn't asked! :curse:

    And the wild-@$$ suggestions that come, are almost completely unrelated to what was originally being asked! wall1

    And to top it all off, the allegedly-helpful responders all want to know what the OP wants to use it for. Which is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY freaking irrelevant! If you tell people what you intend to use some widget for, then it closes off their thinking processes, and absolutely removes any ability to go outside the box! :v8:

    Whew~! :p I feel so much better now... :razz:

    And PLEASE understand, I absolutely do NOT intend to anger, insult, be ungrateful for, or in any way imaginable offend anyone. I see this on almost every forum on which I participate. I have been exceptionally impressed with the caliber of responses I've gotten on all the posts I've made. But there are a few out there in some of the threads I've read that just frost my cookies!

    People, please... Read the question, and if you have an answer to what was asked, just give that without asking which finger the OP picks his nose with!! :wave: If you don't have a good answer, try brainstorming one!

    You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming...

  2. cgutzmer

    cgutzmer Guest

    Could it be that those people that are answering the question that are not as you expect are thinking outside the box using the information given?

    Its quite common for us paper modelers so use non paper components in our models when needed (except for the purists) :) so an answer from that perspective is answering a question even though it may seem off topic to you.

    On a side note, what the heck is an OP? And why do they pick there nose? Hopefully they dont have CA on their fingers when they do it... :p
  3. sneaker

    sneaker Member

    Gripe about Gripes

    I have seen your post you are referring to, and first off your questions are not that well worded. I also notice that you tend to be sarcastic in your replies when you do not get the answer you seek. This does not go far to getting the help you desire. I had an answer for a question you posed in regards to scaling a mercury capsule to a size more suitable to your needs, but after seeing your responses to the posters who did try and help....well I obviously did not post a solution.

    "And to top it all off, the allegedly-helpful responders all want to know what the OP wants to use it for. Which is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY freaking irrelevant! If you tell people what you intend to use some widget for, then it closes off their thinking processes, and absolutely removes any ability to go outside the box!"

    I disagree!!! Sometimes it is relevant to know what the intended use would be for. Perhaps someone has already solved the same problem and has a better workaround to the problem. Knowing the intended use makes it easy for someone to say " oh hey ! I did that , but this is how I did it" Also this hobby is about thinking outside the box. I mean making complex 3d shapes with paper, if that's not thinking outside the box, I don't know what is then.

    This is not a sarcastic reply, but if you feel you are not getting the answers you seek through the forum, then perhaps you should use a general web search, such as Google and what not.

    Sorry! but since I read your very first post I have felt you have been less than cordial in letting your disappointment with the answers received known. Bordering on being rude. The guys here deserve better than that. Regardless as to whether or not they replied with an answer that suits your needs.
  4. gman95687

    gman95687 Member

    I agree 100% with sneaker.....
  5. Elliott

    Elliott Senior Member

    OP - original poster?
    OP - original picker :p:p
  6. Mechanic

    Mechanic Member

    I know you didn't get the answer you were looking for, but I think this is exactly what some of these people were at least trying to do.

    I have the same problem/issue (with some of the same models), and right now there just doesn't seem to be a simple "all ya gotta do is . . ." answer.
  7. sakrison

    sakrison Member

    If you're consistently not getting the answers you need, you're probably not asking the right questions.

    Knowing what the questioner "is going to use it for" seems essential to creative thinking. "How do I make a wooden bucket?" and "How do I get water from the well?" evoke very different kinds of answers. Asking the right question is 3/4 of the solution.

    And even if the answers you get don't meet your needs, expressing appreciation for those answers and for the people who made the effort to give them, is just good manners. Your mother was right: "Please" and "Thank you" ARE magic words that can make all kinds of unexpected things happen.
  8. lancer525

    lancer525 Member


    I'm intrigued by the school of thought that excessive information is necessary. It has been my experience that exactly the opposite is true. I have always seen, in practical application, that it really doesn't matter one whit what a widget is going to be used for. It only matters that the solution is functional.

    If, for instance, had I told people that I wanted to make Doric Columns, then those who responded would have been limited in their thinking, by being pre-guided along those lines. That's how the human mind works. There is a whole branch of psychology that deals with this specific area. The one instance that comes to mind is the Hawthorne Effect. If one knows too much information, it skews one's thinking. If one has too much information about what is being done, and that one is being observed, one behaves differently. It is an example of cognitive and systemic bias. It is akin to pre-determining limitations, based on frame-limiting information. It is much more difficult to generate a paradigm shift, when one has preconceived notions.

    As an example, for a Halloween party some years ago, I made a fairly reasonable facsimile of a lunar excursion suit. I couldn't think of a good way to connect the gloves to the arms of the suit, not having either the facilities to machine locking rings, nor the ability to do it in the time available. With that time inexorably running out, I went to several stores, explained what I was doing, how it needed to work, and even had detailed photographs. Not one person in any of these stores was able to focus on anything other than "Wow, you're making a moon suit!" until I stopped mentioning it. They were all overwhelmed with the amount of information available, and unable to resolve the problem, because they were limiting themselves to the frame of the information available. The following weekend, I went back to one of the other places I'd already been, found someone else with whom to discuss the problem, and said only that I needed something cylindrical, to connect into something else cylindrical, and it had to both be hollow, as well as have a close fit. The guy solved the problem in about ten seconds flat.

    Corrugated PVC drain pipe fittings. And they worked like a charm:


    Now, that guy in the plumbing department at Home Depot didn't need to know precisely what I was going to use them for, else he'd have been thinking about what I was doing, instead of solving the problem.

    If he had known all there was to know, he simply would not have been able to have "thought outside the box" enough to have come up with the solution he did. He would have focused on the minutiae of the suit, and not on the problem, just like everyone else before him. In fact, he did ask what I was going to use it for, and I said, "If I tell you, it will be too much information." So, he thought about it for a few seconds, and voila! Problem solved.

    Too much detail, too much information, and too much scope prevents working the problem. And that example isn't the only instance of something like this happening. I've seen it happen many times, both to me, and to many other people.

    George Patton once wrote, "The best way to get the maximum out of people, is to give them the minimum. Tell them what their mission is, give them the tools to accomplish it, shut up, and get the hell out of their way. Every single time, they will amaze you with their ingenuity." It is just as true in 2008, as it was in 1944.

    And for those of you who have the perception of rudeness on my part, it is your perception. One simply cannot infer tone, intent, or expression from the written word. I have a great deal more to say on the matter, but I will leave it at that.

    So much for being able to Bitch and Gripe without everyone stepping in your mess kit...
  9. cgutzmer

    cgutzmer Guest

    Well this is the bitches and gripes section ;) you are free to voice your opinion and they are free to voice theirs!

    Everyone has different schools of thought, I respect them all.

    pertaining to this...
    And for those of you who have the perception of rudeness on my part, it is your perception. One simply cannot infer tone, intent, or expression from the written word. I have a great deal more to say on the matter, but I will leave it at that.

    this is the key part...
    One simply cannot infer tone, intent, or expression from the written word.

    I agree 100% and this fact alone causes sooooo many problems!
    p.s. I like the long dowel idea ;)
  10. sneaker

    sneaker Member


    Thank you for taking the time to explain your thought process. While I do not agree with some of it, I can appreciate and respect it. I have a better understanding. In the future I will try and steer clear of your mess kit.:thumb:

  11. Tim Crowe

    Tim Crowe Member

    Nice to know my attempt to help was appreciated.

    I will post no further replies, and go elseware.

  12. jaffro

    jaffro Long term member

    The people in the first stores you visited were obviously idiots. I'm assuming you still managed to glean enough ideas from them to ask the home depot guy for "some kind of corrugated drain pipe type fittings"

    I work in a store that I assume would be Australia's answer to Home Depot and it's my job to know as much about what a person is doing or trying to do, it most often helps me find them what they need even if neither of us have a clue what it is. It's my job to think outside the box in order to solve problems just like yours and I find that the majority of my customers know what they want but not what it is... I hope that makes sense. If I know what they want to do, sometimes I can suggest something in a part of the store they never thought of looking in the first place... etc.

    So you're saying if you provide too much information to a salesperson where you come from, their thought process completely shuts down? I think you just wanted an excuse to post a picture of your moon suit... :p
  13. Elliott

    Elliott Senior Member

    Jaffro: :rofl::rofl::rofl:

    lancer525: Your comment about the salesman is impolite to say the least. From what you say you didn't even give the guy a chance, just assumed he wouldn't be able to think outside the box if you gave him the info he requested. How sad.
  14. gman95687

    gman95687 Member

    This whole thread has taken on a tone of sad disrespect and I am surprised that a moderator has not had the gall to shut this one down. Obviously this gripe was started by someone who has the belief that they are a rocket scientist and that the rest of us are just lowly little pawns wandering around with nothing better to do than pick our noses. And then when we disagree we get hounded for stepping in the mess kit??? Please......I am quite certain there are engineers, metalworkers, and most important of all, veterans who have actually worked on some of the vehicles they build models of wandering around here that take offense to this, myself included. If the forum answers frost your cookies, then you are an expert and you dont need to be here. Please, some moderator put an end to this one and bury it in a deep pit and lose the shovel....
  15. Nothing

    Nothing Longtime Member

    well this is the section for just such comments. no need to shut it down. if you have a specific answer to his problems give it if not ignore him. sometimes you need more information to come up with a solution. but then again im a little slow and probably should have just ignored this thread.:)

  16. Whew, glad you feel better now ---(I pick mine with my right little finger)
  17. SEBRET

    SEBRET Member

    Ok, I was reading this and I had a profound, Out of the box thought. Try to stay with me on the following train of thought.

    Say you wrote a letter to a distant co-worker, as in a pen and paper letter, and you were looking for a clean and quick reply. This reply is not required to meet a specific time limit, but as soon as convenient would be appreciated. well naturally, if the response is off topic and unclear you have to write another letter asking for a better response. This requires paper, ink, postage and the manpower to deliver it. all resources that are better if not overworked. Some would say that this off topic reply has cost you something that was unnecessary. Well, you're proly on a budget and have just wasted about 60 cents, which believe it or not, can add up. That was years ago.

    Today you are posting on a forum that costs you nothing to maintain membership in and uses practically no physical resources.

    First off, saying that a response/post is a waste is complete and utter BS. Resource wise, the data stream that makes up said post is probably smaller than the stream of nerve signals that tell your body to breath. We are not trying to conserve space on the internet, and to do so would be pretty pointless. Also, in my honest opinion, some of the best information and lessons learned in my hobbies come from off topic, hijacked, or derailed threads. To say that focusing only on the minute amount of data and questioning set forth by the OP creates a brainstorming atmosphere is a disgrace to the essence of free thought. The human mind is NOT a well placed row of encyclopedic knowledge. It is a web of conscious and subconscious thoughts and info, ranging from what you had for lunch to what your favorite color was when you were a toddler. The only natural way to harness what is essentially the most powerful and complex database system in existence is to let it bring the knowledge to you. Don't restrict thought and then expect brainstorm level breakthroughs. For every good answer there are 20 bad answers, and lurking your way through the mess is how you come to realize those good tidbits of advice and intelligence. If you really want a good answer to your question then Post your thoughts and just sit back. If you just wait and let an ass backwards conversation flow through the thread, your more likely to see a genuinely helpful response slip out of the melting pot of babbling buffoonery. And Guess what? Do you know how a lot of threads get started? They were the result of random provocations in those so called "wasteful posts" that you say are killing your threads.

    That brings us to the next point. The internet really does not work as your personal fetch pet. You can't expect to come to a forum, post a question, receive a perfect answer in the first response and be on your way. It's highly likely that a great answer to your question exists, it just takes time for those who have that answer to stumble upon your thread, if they do at all. If that person does not show up however than an answer must be created. That does not mean that you shout at a random person till they have your answer and shun them if they never do. This is a forum, and as a forum, answers to our questions should be derived by the effort of the community, thus brainstorming and free thought should be reigning factors in most conversations here.

    I've never been great at explanations, so I apologize to anyone who does not fully understand what I have said above. I do hope that this is helpful to you Lancer.
  18. zealousy

    zealousy Member

    I read through the post you were talking about initially....IMHO, you do sound pretty rude dude! I mean, it doesn't hurt to be a little courteous even if you don't get the answer you wanted...cos somebody spent a coupla minutes of their time to read and try to help you..you owe them that much! Besides, any scrap of off-topic info will only add to what you know, not reduce it! While I do understand the frustration when you don't get what you need, but we are card modelers right? Isn't patience something we all brag about having in abundance?

    Just a thought! Hope you don't take offense, cos it never meant to be!

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page