New site? May also be copy right infinging?

Discussion in 'Internet Finds' started by, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. I need a Pin up girl. . .

    I just found this site:
    Lotta great stuff, but there are models I paid FG for and there are models that are scans of Modelik and Malty...You have to register to see them, most of the stuff is freebies that I have seen on other sites, but the "good stuff" I question if they have the rights to pass out. Any of you designers may want to take a look...
  2. shoki2000

    shoki2000 Active Member

  3. Fozzy The Bear

    Fozzy The Bear New Member

    There is a little known fact that is often overlooked on this site. I'm not even sure that the moderators are aware of it.

    Anything published on paper in Eastern Europe before 1996 is in fact totally public domain. There was no copyright on printed material in the Soviet Block, before that date. So effectively any card or paper model published there before that date is completely un-protected.

    Regardless of the percieved interests of the designers, it is not illegal to copy or reproduce or resell (if you wish) any model first produced and published in Eastern Europe before that date.

    This is a hang over from Comunist rule in those states, where it was enshrined in law that printed material was free and information approved and legally published was the property of the people.

    It is also not possible for the designers or publishers of those models to retrospectively claim copyright on those models as they are public domain. So 99% of "Maly Modelarz" models are perfectly legally free to use and copy and re-distribute as are many of the earlier Modelik and GPM and other manufacturers models, as they were produced with the approval of the state and at the time by companies that were effectively state owned.

    Best Regards,
    Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
  4. rickstef

    rickstef Guest

    actually anything published in the eastern bloc countries is still subject to copyrights.

    the 1996 copyright nulification is a bogus claim

    There have been a couple of links posted to state this claim, and we have polish and russian members who will confirm this

  5. shoki2000

    shoki2000 Active Member

    MM Me-109G depicted on the front page for aircraft was published in 2002. Even if this bogus claim was true, they are still pirates.
    Going further - page 3, Ka-50 Hokum - Halinski was always a private company so the bogus claim wouldn't apply either = pirate.
    Modelik changed the name few times but it was never state-owned company, always a private enterprise.
  6. aaronlam

    aaronlam Member

    Good discussion. This is also what I want to know. Hope some members from Poland / Russia can share their point of view. Of course, legel advise is strongly recommended :)
  7. I need a Pin up girl. . .

    I am glad I started the thread, I am sorry I registered to the site **********************-:(
    I suppose the senior fraud is a good way to call the site?
  8. shoki2000

    shoki2000 Active Member

    Poland - every intelectual property (including card models) is protected for 75 years from the time it was published for the first time. There is plenty of legaleze in the wording of the copyright act but this is the basic rule and it applies retrospectively.

    Don't know how it was handled in the Soviet Union but I wouldn't be surprised if they really adopted the rule that everything that was published belonged in public domain. Frankly that was a neat way to "legaly" republish any book, model, song or anything else without having to worry about copyrights.
    Example - I grew up in Poland and access to books published in the West was limited to the very few that Polish publisher could secure rights to reprint, reason being very high cost of royalties. To my surprise, short trip to the Russian language library would give me any book I wanted, but in Russian. Do you believe they paid royalties to copyright owners??
  9. Fozzy The Bear

    Fozzy The Bear New Member

    Noted.... And I agree that does make them pirates.

    Actually it's irrelevant that they were a private or state company.... If the information was state approved for publication, (and everything had to be, or you could be arrested for publishing it) once published it was public information.

    As far as I'm aware only the state could hold copyright on works for the benefit and interest of the people as a whole. Effectively making all legally printed matter public domain.

    Having published several works myself and having spoken with my own lawyer on this subject, as I was at the time concerned by the lack of copyright protection, she has previously confirmed this premise. This also applies in a lot of parts of the Far East and Arabia where there are no copyright laws at all!

    What a designer in Eastern Europe would say, be they Polish or Russian is not necessarily legally valid. I agree that it may not be morally right or in the interests of designers or companies from that period, but that doesn't necessarily make it illegal.

    Best Regards,
    Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
  10. Fozzy The Bear

    Fozzy The Bear New Member

    You cannot apply Copyright Retrospectively...... Once something is released to Public Domain, you have relinquished all rights to it. You can not then take back those rights.

    Intelectual properties were only so covered after the introduction of that law protecting them.

    This is part of the reason why Modelik and GPM have re-released earlier models with minor modifications to them. Because by Publishing them with the changes, they were able to wrestle back rights on the newly released models.

    Best Regards,
    Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
  11. shoki2000

    shoki2000 Active Member

    I don't think those models were considered public domain.
    The "retrospective" part was about the fact that the new law was enacted to cover earlier publications covered by arlier versions of the copyright law.
    There is a reason why, if anybody tries to sell scans of those old models on (Polish equivalent of Ebay) auctions are removed immediately after there is a complain from anybody about those auctions. knows that they have to act quickly since both publisher and the offender are leaving in the same country and the copyrights are easily enforcable. Ebay is very smart in the way they set themselves up so only the copyright owner can complain and do it through a lengthy and painful process of "verification". It is not easy for Polish publishers to enforce they rights overseas, especially since there is not that much money involved and they cannot afford the fees US attorneys are charging per hour.
  12. dansls1

    dansls1 Member

    Is it possible that they have permission to post up these models? I can't really read all the comments and such as there are posts in a bunch of different languages. The KA-50 is out of print from Halinski - if they don't have plans to reprint it, might they have given permission to host scans?
    I suppose the best way to find out would be to send them an email linking the site and ask. Maybe if I get a chance at work today I'll try.
    I'd just find it surprising that a site would get away with having so many apparently pirated models posted, but I suppose it's possible.
  13. MOS95B

    MOS95B Member

    Ummmm, I don't wanna fan the pirate fire, y'all have that covered. But I do want to point out that as of right now, the links is still in th original post. all that was changed was the visible text....
  14. shoki2000

    shoki2000 Active Member

    No, Halinski, or for that matter any other publisher never gave permission to post scans of their models on the web.
    If they would be willing to do that, why should they do it in such a strange manner and not do it themselves? I believe Modelik is either doing it already or planning to do something like that in the near future.

    As to why those offenders are getting away with it I answered earlier.
    Publishing card models is a one-man operation, this is not a lucrative enterprise so they cannot afford to hire lawyers abroad to represent them in enforcing copyrights. Add the language barrier to complicate this task even further....
  15. Fozzy The Bear

    Fozzy The Bear New Member

    Agreed Michael..... However there are no copyright notices on the earlier models. Just a publication date and in many cases, not even a publication date. Which takes them entirely out out the publishers control. Effectively meaning that they relinquished those rights by default.

    This is more to do with the fact that the copyright laws at the time were virtually non existant and therefore they had no preceedent to apply when publishing them and at the time could have no grounds to consider doing so.

    The fact is that you can't shut the stable door after the horse has bolted out.

    Because of this, this is more of a moral question for each individual rather than legal issue. Those publishers have my sympathy, but as you say it is effectively impossible for them to defend any rights they may have (for financial reasons) and it is impossible to defend themselvs in terms of rights that they reliquished by default of notice. Whether they at the time considered them to be public domain or not.

    Many American motion pictures fall into the same trap. The copright laws in the USA were very weak prior to the early 1970's and thousands (litterally) of earlier motion pictures and documentaries accidentally or by neglect fell into the public domain. You'd be surprised to hear some of the list of major films that the studios can't claim rights to.

    Ebay does not only take into account a complaint from the original publisher. Ebay also has no legal ruling on this. That is just a matter of policy. What Ebay may or may not choose to do has no bearing on the legal question.

    Best Regards,
    Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
  16. dansls1

    dansls1 Member

    Isn't the best way to stop the pirate site to let as many people as possible know it's a pirate site? I wonder if we shouldn't have a listing somewhere here, maybe in the Wiki, of known pirate sites. I know some will say that it would allow those interested in pirate models to have a simple list - but as stated, for those of us who have a moral issue with using models distributed in a means unapproved by the publisher, how else would we know in some cases?
  17. rickstef

    rickstef Guest


    why contribute to the problem by having a list of known pirate sites?

    is it not counterproductive for those of us who want to stop piracy to have a list detailing all the sites that are, freely available on the net?

    its like being in a sinking boat, trying to bail water out of it, using only a coffee mug, you can keep scooping, but the water is just gonna keep coming.

    Most of the forum admins and mailing list owners have in their mind which sites are pirates, if you beleive you have a legit site, send me or the moderators a PM asking for us to check it out, and give you feedback.
    I rather have tons of PMs asking about sites than having to edit tons of posts due to pirate sites.

  18. dansls1

    dansls1 Member

    I don't know - I just think that there's a ton of people out there that download and print models without reading this forum or spending much time with the internet community. Until they are made aware of specific sites that are distributing models illegally / unethically - they don't have any idea. So they might make the moral choice to do the right thing if they knew - but aren't going to go out of their way to find the information - so if it's more easily available, the better for preventing the piracy.
    I suppose ultimately it's a matter of how many people know and download / use pirate models willingly versus how many do it not knowing any better. To me it seems that trying to help those who don't know and would make the right decision if they did would be better - but that's just my opinion.
  19. Fozzy The Bear

    Fozzy The Bear New Member

    I think the point that Rick is trying to make to you there, is that by publishing a list of pirate sites and saying: "morally you should not go to these sites and download models" All you are managing to do is publish an easy to access list of where to get pirated models from.

    You can't really say to a child "Here's a candy store, now you can look at it but don't eat any sweets because that would be naughty!"

    All you'd be doing is encouraging more downloads of pirated material.

    Best Regards,
    Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
  20. David H

    David H Member

    This is a tricky one and no mistake.

    When I go to the city archives to look a building control plans I am not allowed to make a copy unless I can prove that it is 75 years from the death of the architect who drew it . These plans are in the public domain and it is the originators intellectual rights which are being protected. This is annoying and awkward but in order to keep using the archives I abide with the rules.

    This means I cannot expect to copy a plan that was drawn much after the 1870s (75 + 50 years working life) and some archivist simply apply a 150 year rule to make sure they cannot be challenged in the future.

    I am not aware that anyone has looked at the position of the company or practice's copyright. I once worked for a company who sold a photographic archive that they had retained in lieu of debts to a national heritage body. Confused?

    Can I simply ignore the standards of the UK when looking at foreign websites?

    Is it a moral decision for the individual?

    I think that's policy should be to not tolerate any activity which could be below best practice.


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