Need some technical advise

Discussion in 'Ship & Watercraft Models' started by mapuc, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. mapuc

    mapuc Member

    Let me first give you an example

    I have printet out the first part of the Digital navy's Admirable. Then I cut out some of the parts and glue it on some thicker papper(cardboard) But here come's the problem. The cardboard bends and looks like a bowl( as seen from the side). First I thought it was the quantity and the type of glue I used. Therefor I tried out different type of papperglue and I even tried out the quantity of it, to see if that would help and no it did not.

    So how can I prevent this from happen

  2. Swinger

    Swinger Member

    Use non-water based glue. Unfortunately I can't advise you any specific brand since I'm not familiar to any non-Polish glue market. ;-)
  3. mapuc

    mapuc Member

    Can you give me a name on one of those non-water based glue?

  4. Swinger

    Swinger Member

    I use a chlorine-caoutchouc glue ("Butapren", but as a "local" glue it is probably being sold in Poland only). I don't know where you live, but I think UHU is quite an international brand... As far as I remember, they produce some butapren-like glue. UHU Universal or something like that? Well, I'm not sure. Maybe someone else will know.

    Butapren looks like this:
  5. gera

    gera Member

    For perfectly strait sheets of paper glued to another (either another sheet of paper or carton) I use white glue...BUT after applying the glue I place the sheets under some heavy weight like big thick books !!!! after about an hour you have strait sheets ready to cut... :D
  6. Falcon

    Falcon Member

    :D Hi Marcus, I think the best is to put some haevy books or other stuff on the glued parts as Gerardo mentioned. Or look for better cardboard. Give the paper some time to dry.

  7. mapuc

    mapuc Member

    I'll try to do so and thank you for the advise on my glueing problems

  8. Gil

    Gil Active Member

  9. Darwin

    Darwin Member

    Paper and cardstock have a grain. In the direction of the grain, the sheet is stiff and resists curling. In the direction across the grain, it is weak and will curl. One tip for laminating is to alternate the grain directions between layers, so that the upper layer will act against the curling of the lower layer. Add that to weights holding the laminate flat while drying, and you should get flat parts. (This is the way plywood is made, for the very same reasons.)
  10. Darwin

    Darwin Member

    And now you ask, "gee, that's great, but how do I figure out the grain direction?" Tear a scrap of the paper. In the direction of the grain, the tear will be straight with "clean" edges. Across the grain, the tear will be jagged, with ragged edges.
  11. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    Great advice on laminating, particularly the need to weigh down the parts while the glue dries and paying attention to the grain. I've used the 3M spray, and it works very well, just use good ventilation where you are applying it. I've also used glue sticks to very good effect, again since I think they are water based you really need to keep it under a nice weigh while it cures to avoid as much as possible the curling effect. I dare say this is true no matter what the adhesive, but moreso with the water based glues.

    Hope this helps.


  12. Bargee61

    Bargee61 Member


    I personally never use PVA glues for laminating - they always seem to induce curl no matter how well you weight the parts down. I tend to use either Pritt Sticks or the 3M Spray Adhesives, but have lately started to use UHU Power Spray which has given me superb results (attached picture of my basic toolkit which shows the product)

  13. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Lots of good advice..., but one underlaying fact about water based glues is that when used on paper the paper will moisten and begin to return to it's constituent base, paper pulp. Paper does have a grain of sorts, an artifact of the manufacturing process, but it is not distributed evenly enough to allow for uniform expansion. Instead the paper has clumps or islands of pulp which swell against their neighboring clumps causing the paper to form the familar bumpy surface of moistened paper. The grain comes into effect as enough of these clumps have a similarly oriented grain causing non-uniform expansion along one axis causing it to curl. Using a non-water based adhesive bypasses these tendencies and allows the laminated piece to be used immediately after bonding.

    From "Experiments in Aluminum Foil Paper" by Gil
  14. Jim Nunn

    Jim Nunn Member


    Before I start a model I will take all of the parts I can find that need to be laminated and use 3M 77-spray glue to laminate them. I also make my own 1 mm and .5 mm stock using 3M 77 glue. While building the model if I need to laminate parts to thick card stock I will use Elmer’s or Wiccoll glue but the parts are then placed between two 11 x 14 in sheets of glass and allowed to dry for 24 hours or longer. The amount of glue you use will also affect how much the parts will “cupâ€. Use a little glue as possible and you will have fewer issues with your parts deforming.

    Jim Nunn
  15. Peter H

    Peter H Member

    The mechanics of this situation you described are not hard to determine.

    Whatever glue you used in the laminating process made the fibre matrix of the thick card swell on one side. The opposite side stayed the same and formed a rigid base.

    Since the only way the card could accommadate one side with a minute but larger swollen surface area was to curl around the rigid base with it's smaller(ie. constant) surface area.

    You could have some fun with a bit of math here by noting the percentage of curl compared to a full cylinder and the thickness of the card and determine the effects of the glue.

    If this was left unattended then the card would have stabilised (ie. set) and you are left with a curled rigid piece of card.

    Jim Nunn's concept is the "cats pyjamas". Use as little glue only on the surface so that has little effect to the fibre matrix of the card and has the greatest adhesive ability (3M 77 spray) then carefully stress the card by an opposite force within the card (and flatten the laminate) while the glue stabilises inside the glass plates to make it finish up as flat as possible.

    I've skipped over some minor details by this is a rough explanation to the problem, hope it gives an insight.

    Peter H

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