need a small logging plan please

Discussion in 'Track Planning' started by bigsteel, Sep 4, 2007.

  1. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    im going to get rid of the flume.but i've seen this done by a freind a few years no going for extreme realism but a plan with plenty of operation which this plan gave and some great modeling oppurtunities.--josh
  2. inqzitr

    inqzitr Member

    Wow; we must have been writing at the same time!

    Agree with the scenery issue. Just hard to get anything realistic into a small space. You could still use the log pond, and put a small sawmill on that side, but arrange the trackage so you'd have to 'go around' once before you could drop the logs off or something.

    What parameters are you using for xtrakcad? If you'd be willing to upload your plan, and tell me which ones, I could simply draw what I'm thinking on an alternate layout.
  3. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    like you said,im not really into the "extreme prototypical" modeling others gotta remember,this is only a 4 by 8 its not meant to be a scenic empire.the tunnels are no problem for me.and i too plan on hiding alot of tunnels and track with trees,so its only veiwable form certain spots on the layout.

    i dont mind changing the plan,its just i dont particularly like this part of the hobby and wanted to get started as soon as possible.if switchbacks will make this look better and make the layout work together better,ill try it.

    but if someone could show me how i me how i should go about changing this as describing i cant "see" how or what people are really talking about.thanks for all your resonses guys.its really helping me out.for a whil i thought yall forgot about me sign1.thanks.--josh
  4. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    my layout as of now is on the first table is 50in by 96in and pretty much what i have to have is a sawmill (as i cant see a logging line without one),a log camp with high lead and heel boom.a water feature,either as a log pond or wharf or possibly a finished lumber loading,like off the cliffs in oregon.thats pretty uch it.thanks.--josh

    OH,and a continuos run option,i just like to watch'em run every once in a while :D
  5. boatman909

    boatman909 Member

    My Lilliput Logger


    As I've been working on my incarnation of the Lilliput Logger, I found that the layout as originally designed could be divided into 4 distinct units from a scenery point of view.

    Basically, each quadrant of the layout focuses on one key theme - the port and mine on one side, and on the other side the canyon/mountain and the logging camp/log loading area (on upper level).

    I am focusing on detailing each quadrant around its main theme, with little vignette scenes to add more interest - such as fishermen on the dockside wharf , or a swimming party by the low trestle bridge. On the other side, for the main scene containing the canyon and mountain I am focusing on lumberjacks cutting down trees, with small scenes like campers, hikers, bears in amongst the trees. The logging camp and log loader areas are fairly full of action and buildings, so I will just focus on that.

    Only issues I have found is the need to use a 4% incline all the way up to the top logging section, in order to give clearance, especially under/by the canyon for the lower (hidden) track. I also had to use a 15" radius curve at the start of the incline, in order to give enough room on the port side of the layout, but since much of this is in a tunnel, it does not seem to notice, especially with short logging or ore cars, and shay locos.

    The layout is very "busy", with a lot of track crammed in, but I like the overall effect.

    I am hoping to complete the layout for a local train exhibition next Sunday... lots of work this week!!

    Hopefully, I'll update with some more photos later this week (see here for progress 1 month ago)

    steaming into the future
  6. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    thanks for responding john,the 4 distincareas is probably rice's original idea.the super detailiis what im looking for in such a small layout.

    and your 15in radius is correct,but i wanted my absolute minimum to be 18in's.the busy effect is alright with me but i may get rid of some of it.or with all these modifications just make a new plan all together.i hope you get it done soon,i recant wait to see it all put together.thanks.--josh
  7. inqzitr

    inqzitr Member

    Looks great boatman! O.k., since I like this plan, perhaps I should do something themed around this as well. I like the extra spurs @ the mine- makes it seme more of a legit operation.

    Bingo re: the 'scenes'. Totally agree. My plan was to simply break them apart for a few reasons. First, I'm living in a place that I don't have a dedicated spot, secondly, I like the scenic break up and thirdly, it lets me focus on a few things at once, instead of a whole bunch.

    Yea, it is a busy trackplan, but still- for what it crams in, it does a good job breaking everything up scene-wise. Busy's o.k. at the port side, but perhaps not as much @ the others.

    BigS- you could something like BoatM did where your log pond is, and put the sawmill over there (a smaller one.)

    O.k., all this talk is really helping me to refine what I'd like to do as well. I really like aspects of this plan, but want distinct scenes. Perhaps I'll work some things out and post them too.

    I also like some of rice's other plans from his 'small, smart and practical layouts' book. He has a modular logging layout that I like, as well as a mining road that is pretty cool (mt. galena mining.) The latter is interesting b/c he cuts a regular 4x8 into 2 sections, then combines them to make the layout. His point was that the regular 4x8 wastes a lot of space that could be used for other things. He also drew a couple of 'cockpit' plans that were pretty cool.

    The former creates 3 distinct scenes which could be connected by tracks if desired. These include a port/sawmill area, a yard/engine service area, with the primary switchback to get to the logging area and the main logging town/loading area/etc. (you could make it what you want it....). These scenes had their own backdrop and could even have their own lighting if you want.

    Another one that I really liked was Ron Hatch's midwestern narrow gauge, which was done on a 4x8 in hon3. He said that he basically 'borrowed' the plan from someone else and changed it slightly. I really like Ron's plan... and it is hard to find a copy of anywhere (I just found my 1994 MRC article on the layout...). Perhaps I should scan/post it? The other cool thing about that layout- its made entirely of foamboard, and weights about 70lbs with everything on it.
  8. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    boatmans layout is VERY sweet looking,i like the HUGe rock faces on everything,it really gives an idea of mountains.but sawmill wise,im in the middle of building one and am to far to just tear it up and start a new.but ill try my hand at designing my own from scratch and see if it can out do rices plan.if not,ill just stick with the cramped track.after all its just a 4 by 8,there normally just very detailed and not very realistic.and hey hatches plan sounds pretty sweet,i think wed all love to see it :thumb:.--josh
  9. ocalicreek

    ocalicreek Member

    Yes, please do post that plan when you get a chance!
  10. inqzitr

    inqzitr Member

    here it is...

    After many HOURS of trying to figure out what was wrong with my computer, I finally just restored it to an earlier time and now I can upload pics.

    Here it is:

  11. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    thats a great looking plan there! gives me some ideas...darn i just started to fix my Lilliput plan too! ill post what i have so far,and then try and make some variations on this plan to try and involve the same things.thanks!--josh
  12. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    ok,heres my plan with some improvements,i removed the flume,got rid of the log pond and took away some town buildings near the mill since the grade would be too much anyway,although they could be half in half out of the hill...anyway i left the mill since i've started to build it and really love it so far.i added the heel boom in the right camp and a high lead in the left camp and would like to add a loader to this spar making the switchback for loading the mill and spar tree.i also replaced the open space where the pond wasa with the main camp.i figured it fit pretty well. i think the improvements made a big difference.theres a bunch of green space by the tunnels,partially hiding them,which was what i was goin for.anyway,comments are greatly appreciated.ill be making another plan as i've got some interesting ideas....anyway,here it is!--josh
  13. inqzitr

    inqzitr Member

    looking good!

    View attachment 58394
    Well, its looking good! My only real misgiving is the location of the mill. I'd rather see lower myself, so you'd get the sense of travel and moving materials from one place to another. What kinds of cars are you going to be using? Primarily flats with roughed/finished product?

    Here's what I'm thinking (but these are just my thoughts...)- on the attached file...

    However, there is more unity with all the major industries being on one side and the loggin operation on the other. I guess it is really up to you.

    The original lillipu logger placed the mill next to the yard and docks...

    Also, what type of track are you going to use? Do you know what parameter files you are using to plan this out with? I'm trying to find something that has templates for curved switches myself.

    Attached Files:

  14. inqzitr

    inqzitr Member

    I just have to comment on the ron hatch plan above. I was really impressed with a few things with this plan. One, its small. two, the degree of operation on it and three the conservation of magnitiude- i.e. the coal operation dominates the town, which is a mining town (not just a little operation on the side...)

    I really thought about using this plan, but it just doesn't work as well in HO vs. HOn3 (the layout is narrow gauge).

    If you do come up with something, pls post it though. I'd love to see what you have!
  15. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    you've got some good points and ill try to switch it now,ill just keep the track generally the same but switch industrie sides.the original had it on the other side but also used a 15in minimum radius on the branch and it had a VERY small mill.i love the process so i wanted a large mill.ill post changes either in a minute or ill wait till tomorrow.
    car wise ill be using anything 40ft and under.skeleton cars for logs,flats for lumber,boxcars for supplies,and some refridgerator cars for the packing plant.for track ill be using C83 flex with atlas turnouts.all this was done with Xtrk and came with the program.thanks.--josh
  16. ocalicreek

    ocalicreek Member

    The Hatch plan looks really nice, thanks for posting! But there must be some insane grades! I like grades...shortens train lengths which make trains very appropriate for many logging & mining lines.

    What about On30, using only the smallest cars, or On18 even? If the grades are steep enough (and the equipment short enough) then it may just work. It does limit rolling stock but since some of the upper yard tracks would have to disappear for clearance sake that wouldn't be too big an issue there.
  17. inqzitr

    inqzitr Member

    From the article, he states he uses 4% grades. I'm planning on using rather steep grades as an excuse for using lots of geared locos (I have a shay, climax and heisler already...). 4% is nothing, even in real life, for a geared loco. I was looking at some Cass RW photos, and a photojournal showing they had ~9% grades in certain parts of the railway (wikipedia says 11%, which I've read other places too...)

    I've thought about doing On30, but I already had stuff in HO, and would rather do HOn3 when the chance presents itself.

    Here's a link to some cool photos:

    Small Layout Scrapbook- I was actually thinking of using the gumstump plan to work out some kinks in my modelling...

    Here's a cool site on using switchbacks, with some real world examples...

    Zigzag and Switchback Railroad - Railway

  18. nachoman

    nachoman Guest

    You know, there is quite a bit of creativity in designing an interesting small layout that's realistic enough and disguises the small proportions. In a 4x8 size, I think there will always be a few issues that thoughtful observers will notice. For instance, in the lilliput design, one may point out that tunnels were uncommon for logging railroads. But eliminate the tunnels, and then flaws arise because too much track is visible in one scene. If one is really picky, criticisms occur over of why a railroad was built to haul commodities less than a mile. I think the goal of the 4x8 should be to minimize potential conflicts as much as possible, while recongizing some are unavoidable.

    Josh, I think the changes you have made to both the lower yard and upper yard are spot-on. The only thing that seems awkward about your revised trackplan is the track that crosses though the backdrop to reach loading area #2. Perhaps what seems weird is to have a siding seemingly coming out of "nowhere" (through a hole in the backdrop) to service an industry. maybe eliminate the backdrop altogether, and hide the two halves of the layout with tall trees or a high ridge?

  19. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    i could try getting rid of the backdrop but i want you to look at the re-desined version too.ill be posting it tonight.thanks.--josh
  20. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

    i got rid of the mine and made it another loading area and made the switchback just that,as another loading area would crowd it and i dornwant to add a spur off of the switchback.ill jus say the huge mill supplies cash for the tunnels :mrgreen:.well here it is with inquiztrs ideas.--josh

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