Keystone Shay NWSL upgrade

Discussion in 'Logging, Mining and Industrial Railroads' started by camelot, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. camelot

    camelot Member

    Ampermeter Class 101 is in Session

    i am having a little trouble understanding the amp readings on the ampermeter , i am pretty sure i have done it correct , i have wired the Ampermeter in a circuit with the motor , and i have selected the "10" on the dial ,which i believe you should use if the expected reading is above "200 m" and below 10 amps.

    BTW what is "200m" 200 milliamps ?

    The reading i get is "0.08" , the question is this 0.08 of 1 amp ? or of 10 amps ? which would be .8 of 1 amp ?.I thinking the 0.8 would be closer ( i hope) as this is about ½ throtle with none of the trucks running attached to the gearbox.

    i have attached this picture to help explain myself.



  2. cidchase

    cidchase Active Member

    Hi Ian,

    It looks like your Ammeter (don't know why it's spelled that way)
    is correctly connected, and you are reading 0.08 amps. The readout is always in amps regardless of the scale setting.

    Does the "H" indicates "hold"?? Meaning the reading is locked in
    and stops changing, set by the yellow button?? Or possibly
    "Highest". I'm not sure about that feature of your DVM.
    What about it , Fred?

    Correct, the "m" is milliamps (1/1000 amps) , the character
    that looks like a "u" is micro, for microamps (1/1000000 amps).

    Under 200 mA you can use the 200m scale (with the probe lead
    in the center hole) for better resolution. Just stay within the range.

    With the locomotive under load your current readings may be considerably higher.

    Hope this helps, I think you've got a good handle on it!
  3. camelot

    camelot Member

    Thanks for the reply Cid , yes the "h" stand for hold , so i could take the picture without having the engine running.

    The amps sure change when i connect the trucks to the gearset.:(


  4. camelot

    camelot Member

    marc gast says

    Marc . whats this , i have been unable to find any information on it , is it simialr to graphite powder ? , where would one find it ?


  5. krokodil

    krokodil Member

    Hi Ian

    the grind compound is not to improve the movement (like oil or grease) but is a kind of very fine abrasive material (mixed into water or similar solutions), which takes off material from the gears to get them into "proper size". When this is achieved you can add a drop of oil to smooth the operation.
  6. eldncn

    eldncn New Member

    Hello folks!
    Here in America, we have a product called Pearl Drops tooth polish that seems to fll this void rather nicely! Surely they've similar products in other parts of the world. It works very well for me!...........................Dean:thumb:
  7. Jeff Law

    Jeff Law New Member

    Hi Guys,

    I'm interested in this use of a mild abrasive to settle the gears in.

    Assuming you're using fine valve-grinding compund, how long do you run the unit for to get the gears bedded-in?

    Jeff Law
  8. eldncn

    eldncn New Member

    Hello Jeff
    Typically 10 -20 minutes in both directions does the trick. Toothpaste itself usually doubles that. I use low to medium power settings.
  9. krokodil

    krokodil Member

    You can also use toothpaste as well. The cheaper in this case are better (filled just with polishing powder and nothing else).
  10. krokodil

    krokodil Member

    What I forgot :mad:

    Those grinding solutions does not work well on some modern material used for gears (like delrin etc.)

    This technology is perfekt for metal gears of any kind. With the plastic anyway the main problem is their not exact size (excentricity etc.), what usually cannot be corrected with grinder.
  11. camelot

    camelot Member

    I could not find Water soluable valve grind compound only oil based , which i thought could damage the plastic.

    However this toothpaste sounds interesting , so you put a little on the gears (metal) run it for a while , then do you clean the paste out and grease/oil the gears ?

    so the cheapest toothpaste , any specific kind it has to be?

    This has me intrigued


  12. krokodil

    krokodil Member

    I have no brands (here in Europe anyway they will be different:) ).
    The best way to visit a dollar shop (or similar) and take the first one and experiment. We really do not need all those mystery what is included (and sold) in the top toothpaste products, we do need just the sand (kaolin) what is always the main part of the toothpastes (does the abrasive cleaning).

    Yes the procedure is correct, you drop a small amount of toothpaste to the gears run it for while and clean (with soapy water). Then add a drop of oil and the mechanism shall work. (do not add to much grinder to the bearings, they should remain tight to avoid noise and other mechanical problems.)

    Good luck
  13. camelot

    camelot Member

    Heres a breakdown of my shay , i have fixed the cab togeather with the boiler with epoxy , i am going to make this removable, fixed to the chasis by a screw from underneath.

    I figure this will make it easier if i ever have to replace the lighglobe in the headlight.The globe is 1.5 volts microbulb and is soldered to each end of a bridge rectifier to achieve constant brightess.I don't know how or why this works but i know it does.

    I made bought some small brass connecters for the bulb wires and encased them with heat shrink.

  14. camelot

    camelot Member

    I have widdened the truck gearbox where the wheelsets sit in , i found they where a little tight and was causing excess stress on the motor , a quick hook up to the ampmeter and i found that the motor was running at about .18-.19 amps at half speed with no binds so far.It still runs hot though but at least i know that i am not overloading it , if it goes i'll just have to replace it.

    Here is a picture with the tender,cab and boiler on the chasis , the water and sand domes , whistle and flue have all been fixed in place....

  15. camelot

    camelot Member

    i have started building on the cylinder area , the crankcase, crankshaft and cylinder assembly are in all in place , once again i used ceramic grease to coat the crankshaft to stop any CCA from bonding to it , and stop it from turning once the gear shafts are in place.

    the valve gears are have also been sprung into place at each end of the crankshaft...

  16. krokodil

    krokodil Member

    Nice job. Congratulation.

    If the motor also after 10-20 minutes remains just warm (you can touch it) do not worry it is maybe normal for that motor. (I have an open frame motor in my Keystone Shay).
  17. camelot

    camelot Member

    The motor gets quite hot after 7-10 minutes at approx 30% throtle , you can touch it with your finger and keep it there but it gets very hot after about 20mins continuous running , at that time it burns your finger.

    I wonder if a can motor would generally be hotter than the open frame motor?

    The shay runs great so it not as though there is a bind or anything and as i said the amps are fine as well , the motor has a .25 amp max continuos running threshold acording to the NWSL manual.

    it will be intesting if the toothpaste will make any difference...


  18. krokodil

    krokodil Member

    Hi Ian

    the can motor is always warmer as the open frame one. However I would not be happy when the motor reaches untouchable temperatures. I had this issue in one series of MDC Shays with can motor. This motor was simple underdimensioned. (It looks like that both NWSL and MDC include motors in their kit what they actually can find on the market :cry: ).
    Even many manufacturers are often in trouble with motor specs - I have got many motors dimensioned by manufacturer for 12 V, in the reality in 10 minutes unloaded conditions they went to visit John Lenon.:cry:

    If the unloaded motor at half throttle does not get very warm after about 30 minutes, but in the engine it does, then you have to check the load. If it gets warm also, than you have to look for a better motor. :cry:
  19. marc gast

    marc gast Member

    Valve Grind Compound

    Valve grind compound is used to hone and seat valves in the heads of automobiles, etc. It is a very fine grit that trues surfaces to each other. This compound should be available at most automotive parts stores. Make sure you pick up the fine grit stuff though for you projects. Good stuff!!

  20. marc gast

    marc gast Member

    Valve Grind - Pearl Drops


    I have found the very fine water soluable valve grind compound to work very well on plastic gears, I use this all the time on the MDC shays, etc. and have been using this for at least 20 some years. Concentricity of the plastic gears will smooth out with with compound as it will "hone' things in place. Pearls drops tooth paste will work well on plastics - I have used it also. However, where metal and plastics meet, the pearl drops will only "hone" the plastics.

    Your shay looks fantastic! Time for the the shay "junk" to be loaded on the walk ways, etc.

    I also use the 1.5 volt mini bulbs with a bridged rectrifier. I make my own for about $1.50 (bulb and Radio Shack rectifier).
    You can also make a directional lighting system with these.

    I was able to mount the rectifier in the tender. I also made the cab/boiler and tender removeable with 090 screws through the bottom of the frame. There are some nice brass details out there also for the domes and headlamp. You may want to look into these also.


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