Fokker DVII Upper Wing

Discussion in 'Tips, Tutorials & Tools' started by Redwulf, Jan 30, 2006.

  1. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

    This is my first model and I have made a few small mistakes. It's a Fiddlersgreen Fokker DVII. One big success I had was the lower wing. I put it together and it turned out very nice. I'm having some trouble with the upper wing however. Any tips or problems in the design I should watch out for? It seems when I bring the trailing edges together it's in the wrong place. It seems like the trailing edges are in the wrong spot. Unless I am missing something.
  2. nx13688

    nx13688 Member

    Are you giving the wing a proper airfoil shape with a curved top and a flat bottom?
    Are you building the D-VII in the "regular" (single sheet) version or the "large" (two sheet) one? Many of the older Fiddler's Green models were designed originally for the smaller size and develop fit problems when scaled up. I started building the large D-VII and gave up after building the wings.
  3. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

    I believe it is the large version. The wings are on a seperate sheet and the fuselage and all other parts are on one sheet. So yes two sheets.

    I think I'm trying to get the proper airfoil. Thats the issue, it seems when I line up the two trailing edges it forces a curve on the bottom. I can't make it flat. I am assuming the proper airfoil is a flat bottom?
  4. nx13688

    nx13688 Member

    Sounds like you aren't pre-forming the top surface of the wing. Pull the top surface of the wing across the edge of a table until it develops a pronounced curve. When you fold the top and bottom surfaces together, the top trailing edge should now be AHEAD OF the bottom trailing edge. Apply glue to the bottom of the top trailing edge, lay the wing down on your work surface, and gently press down on the top surface until the trailing edges line up. Use a ruler to press the trailing edges together until the glue grabs.
    Here's a simple diagram to illustrate:

    Attached Files:

  5. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

    Thanks, I didn't form it this way using a table. I'll give that a try it seems to make good sense. It does look like there is supposed to be a slight undercamber in the airfoil. Do you score the leading edge?
  6. nx13688

    nx13688 Member

    Yes, most FG models need to have the leading edges scored.
  7. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    Hi, Redwolf!

    I just happen to be building this kit myself, and had built one previously...the trick I found to work nicely is to use a bamboo skewer under the top part of the upper wing and use it to put a curve into that part. The upper wing is purposely made a bit longer than the bottom to account for the extra curve you need to put into her. The curve that is required is created by lining up the after edges of both the top and bottom halves, with something like the skewer to help introduce the curve.

    Here's a photo of the upper wing:


    I've reduced the model to 1/72 scale, but the technique is the same. What I did was trim the after edges of the top and bottom halves before folding up to the tips of the scalloped edges...I aligned the edges after scoring the leading edge and putting a skewer in between the halves to get the curve I wanted. That's the skewer in the foreground of the photo. The bottom edge was flat on the table as I did this.

    I put a bead of glue along the inside of the after edges and pressed them together with the skewer still inside the two halves to keep the curve. After the glue set, I removed the skewer and the curve held, even imparting a slight curve to the lover half. I then worked the top ends down to the bottom half, putting glue on the lower half of the ends, and taking my time to gently coax the end parts down and into place.

    It actually is a bit curved as you will see in the photo. In the end, it came out fine. The key is putting the curve into the upper half and lining up the after edges, that ensures you get the right curve in the wing. I did the same thing to the lower wing too, but it was not as pronounced a curve.

    Here's a view from the end of the wing:


    As you'll see, it has a curve in both the top and bottom...perhaps too much of a curve, but practice makes almost perfect.:grin:

    I sure would like to see some photos of your build, if you can. This is my favorite plane of WWI, and I plan on building all of the Dell series at 1/72 scale. I've learned a bit on the two builds, one thing is the struts are not the right length and you need to make them a bit longer. I also will make them a bit thinner on the next model, as they look a bit out of scale the way I did them this time. I might do a build thread when I start the next one, but I'm not sure when that will be.

    Anyway, I hope some of this is helpful.

  8. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

    Thanks Jim, The pictures were very helpful! Your DVII looks very nice. I"ll try to get some pictures of mine up soon. I haven't had a lot of luck with close up pictures. What did you use for your struts?
  9. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    You're more than welcome, Redwulf, and thanks for the very kind words about my build so far.

    I love the Fokker DVII, as I mentioned, and wish there were more models of her available; I have one out of print version in Polish markings from I forget who, but except for the occassional smaller and simplier scale version, nothing else...go figure, one of the more famous fighters and yet no one has offered a decent detailed version of her yet.:cry:

    Oh, my little effort here leaves a lot to be desired...the wing curve is too much, the bottom shouldn't really be that curved, based on photos of her from museums, the struts are too thick and too wide, they should be narrowed down a bit at both ends (where it attaches to the wing/fuselage), which this build does not do properly, etc. By the way, the struts were made of two plys of 67# card with a thin wire sandwiched in the middle. For the next build I will either leave it at one ply or substitute thin wooden struts instead of cardboard, but I really would like to keep it paper if I can; either way, I will try to remember to make the ends of the struts a bit more narrowed/pointy like the photos suggest it should look like, and try not to go overboard with the wing cambers.:roll:

    Anyway, it's a fun build, and even though I built the "LO!" version, the original FG model, not the re-designed and more accurte Dell version, I am still learning how to build these helps if the struts are uniform lengths and in scale, though...not sure if it was the extra curve, my bad construction technique or what, but the strut templates Dell shows for this version were all a tad too short, something I found out too late in the process and had to remove and start over again. Shows the basic rule that you need to fit before gluing is really important, something that I occassionally forget to do, usually with bad results.:oops:

    I am looking forward to seeing photos of your build...maybe we should start a build thread and show the build of each of our Fokker's in it...that might be fun and interesting, no? Well, just an ambitious thought this raining afternoon in New York.:grin:



  11. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    That will be one awesome model!

    I have one or two of his Dr1s, and the graphics are extraordinary!!

    You know, once the first one is available there will be many, many skins produced to go with them, which is excellent.

    Thanks for the info!


  12. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

    Hey Jim,
    I had the flew along with the rest of the family here! My wife was the only one to stay healthy. Good thing too! Well, pictures are hard for me but here is one of my DVII. Next step to put on the vertical stab and rudder. Not quite sure how it resolves with the back of the fuselage. Trying to figure that out a bit. Hope the pictures are ok. I'll get a few more when she starts looking like something.


  13. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    Hi, Redwulf!

    Well, I sure hope you and your family are resting easy and getting better. I have been fighting a head cold for the last few days myself, something we passed around in our household last week.

    Your build is looking great! I noticed this seems to be the original FG Fokker DVII offering; the Dell collection has another "LO!" which is colored slightly different for the upper wing and horizontal stabilizer.

    I was able to get a few things done on my Fokker, however. I pretty much have her done, save for the control surface details and some other odds and ends. This is what she looks like today:


    I think the struts are a bit overscale, so next time around I will try and correct that. Here's a view from the rear:


    I also found a few things are probably better installed before the top wing is installed, such as the machine guns and marking the points for the control surface wire entry into the and learn! Here's another view from the rear:


    Since I hope to make the others from this series by FG as well, this one was a learning experience on what to watch out for in the future. I also have some of Zio's models which I will also try to print out in the same scale, which is 1/72, and he offers different color schemes than the FG line, so that should make for quite a nice little collection, if I eventually see it through. Here's a final view of what she looks like so far:


    These are so much fun to build, I recommend them to anybody who wants a few nights of fun building a pretty nice looking model.

    Hope to get a chance to finish her up this week, so I'll post some more photos then.

    Take care,

  14. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

    Look great Jim. Mine is a total learning experience too. My fuselage is not straight. I debated on pulling it apart and fixing it but hey it's the first attempt. I'm learning on this one. My goal is to build a few of these DVII's and a couple of Camels or Neiports and hang them from the boys room. It can be their little dogfight above the beds! I'll post more too when I get some.

    Again, yours looks real nice. Keep it up!
  15. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    Thanks, Redwulf!

    Yeah, I had the same problem with the fuselage on the first build I did of this model, the version you are building in fact. I found that you have to be very careful in lining up the after edges of the fuselage, were the vertical stabilizer goes later, or it will skew one way or the other. I also learned it was easier, at least for me, to not keep the bottom part attached when building, but to add it later as I felt in trying to fit it while attached it pulls the sides one way or the other out of line unless you are really very careful.

    So, on this model I cut off the bottom and assembled the rest of the fuselage without it, and clipped the back when I had the ends lined up right. I used the lines on the work board to check for plumb fore and aft while clipping. Once the upper parts had dried, I attached the top part that goes on behind the cockpit next, again trying to keep the whole fuselage plumb along a centerline, and then added the bottom, gluing up the forward part first, then working my way back, letting the first parts set with the glue before continuing towards the back.

    It's a bit tricky, particularly without any internal formers to keep things straight, but it finally worked out.:grin: I felt the key was checking the plumb through out using the lines on the work board to check that at each step of the assembly it kept straight...a lesson I learned the hard way on the first build of "LO!".:roll:

    I'm looking forward to more pictures as you go along, you build is looking great!


  16. Texman

    Texman Guest

    Hey Jim,

    Very nice build. I think it turned out very well. Only thing I have to add,
    instead of the struts being overscale, I believe the whole plane, if it is
    1/72, is 50% overscale! Hee hee, ha ha, I kill my little 1/144 building self!

    No really, it looks great. Good to see it.

  17. Redwulf

    Redwulf Member

  18. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Forming the wing of a WW I airplane...

    Hi Ryan, Redwolf and Jim!

    Here´s what I tried while making the large upper (and only) wing for the Fokker D VIII monoplane from Fidd Green:
    On the sheet with the wing it was suggested that you should score, bend and glue the LOWER part of the wing - but I didn´t do that, because I thought that it would make more sense to score and bend the UPPER part, since this part should be rounded and formed to create the proper airfoil form anyway. In addition, a bent form is also much stronger! So, step by step:
    1. I first gently rolled the whole sheet (just where the upper wing is) over the sharp edge on my cutting mat, before cutting the wings out. This leaves you ample space to hold the sheet firmly with your free hand. I did this several times (being very careful to pull straight and not break the paper) until I was pleased with the form.
    2. I then gave the LOWER wing part just a light touch of the same treatment, once or twice, on the printed side (to get the slight camber form).
    3. Then on to the scoring; and here I used a trick that I read somewhere - for the UPPER wing LEADING edge I scored lightly on the BACKSIDE! This gives a bend that is much rounder and smoother - the printed paper doesn´t crack and leave a white line that have to be retouched. Having had success with this simple but very good looking method, I will apply this to every leading edge on every wing from now on. The TRAILING edge I scored as usual, on the printed side, which gave the usual sharp end with cracked paper, which in turn means I now have to do a great deal of touching up with coloured marker pens (VERY carefully...) or water colours.
    4. Then I cut out both parts, leaving as much material as possible around them for handling, especially for the glueing flaps - which I cut with a sharp scalpel blade to about a 3/4 of an inch or 15 mm width.
    5. The lower wing part (having been slightly pre-formed) was then cut just slightly WITHIN the black contour line (which I always do to get rid of them on the model!) to make a nice fit to the rounded upper part. They look perfect together! And, the good bonus you get with this technique is that the wing dihedral (which is accentuated on the lower part of the Fokker D VIII) comes automatically!

    6. The rest is just careful forming, shaping and glueing, which I always do on large scrap paper sheets (which I discard once the glueing is finished) on top of the cutting mat!
    I might just also insert some wing formers and spars just like Jim, to keep the nice rounded wing form for a long time...

    Sometimes it´s good to use your head and think in new ways (and not just blindly follow instructions)

    Good Night from Sweden (it´s one o´clock in the morning here now...)
    Bengt Fredén:wink:


    If I understand what Dick Doll said about the DVIII, you shoud use the underwing serfice from his version on the origioal as there should not be any ribs showing from the bottom, which is covered in plywood. Can any windsocks types clarify that.
    I built the Dell Fat Cat DVII as a birthday request and ran into the strut problem. I had run out of material and time, so I held my nose and pulled a lot of dihedral into the lower wing to make it fit. Everybody loves the model, but I crenge everytime I see it.
  20. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

    Hi, everyone!:)

    Thanks for the great link, Redwulf! It's always nice to have a photo reference when building to check some details against the model, and that site has a lot of very nice photos.

    Thanks for the superb discussion of curving the upper wing, Bengt! I'll have to try the interior scoring method for the upper curved surface, sounds like a great way to impart that nice, easy curve but I hadn't thought of using something like that for the leading edge. That sounds like it will give you a nice curve at the edge without a break in the paper surface, so it probably looks much more realistic than the way I did mine on the DVII. You are right, it's a great idea to not just blindly follow instructions and to try different methods. Great tips! Thanks!

    Thanks, Ringmaster, I hadn't seen the comment about the lower wing before...who, by the way, is Dick Doll? I was looking at the photos from the link posted by Redwulf and I see there is no distinct rib curves on the lower wing, but there does seem to be some color changes in the areas where the lower part of the wings are located in the camo pattern. I have considered the lower part of the wings as fairly flat from other photos and illustrations so I usually don't impart any extreme curve to that lower wing surface on this model, any curve you might see on my model was created by the gluing process and luckily provided a slight curve, mostly by accident. :oops: I know the FG sheets show a cross section of the wing with a very pronounced curve to the lower part of the wings, but I hadn't seen that extreme curve on any other photo sources, so I didn't purposely curve the lower part of the wing on my model...I gather from Bengt that the lower part of the wing on the DVIII is also slightly curved. By the way, I gather that the camo patterns are sometimes different shades on different planes, although I'm certainly no expert, and the Dell versions seem to follow that pattern on the different models fairly well from what I've seen comparing to some other artistic portrayals of the same airplane on the web.

    Oh, and just to note, paperwarbirds is, indeed, coming out with a DVII in a few months, based on an email I received from Roman Seissler, and based on their DRI series, one of which I have, the graphics will be extraordinary, so I expect their DVII will be outstanding! One of the areas lacking in the FG model is the engine details, so I have a good feeling Roman is going to give us a superb model when it's released.

    I would love to see some more photos of other models being built, if possible.:grin:

    Cheers to all!

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