Experimental Tanks and Paper Panzers, Which would you like to see in 1:72?

Discussion in 'Armory & Military' started by MilanX3, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Good Day all,

    I wished to have a detailled discussion with the community about which non production/experimental tanks peak your interest, and of those which ones you would like to see made as a model in 1:72 or 1:87 scale in paper/card. Please give details in your response about why you chose those specific tanks, where you first knew about those rare tank plans and where others could find information and drawings of those tanks so that your dream model can maybe come true.

    For me, I have known much about tanks for years, but was impressed by the researchers on the World of Tanks team when they presented and animated many paper panzer, rare Russians, fascinating French and a set of American tanks that for the most part never existed past blueprints. I have tried to create the German VK series of experimental tanks as they look brutish and have a rare shape, a bit like the Indiana Jones tank in modern form. I have quite of few that peaked my interest, but the ones below are my first list:


    Please join in the chat, classic and modern tanks welcomed...Cheers!

  2. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    Indeed, the experimental tanks and even fictional tanks, represented in World of Tanks make for a very interesting game with a lot of varied tanks and abilities.

    Some of them represented better than others, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

    Some of my favorites of the era (WW2-Korea) were....


    The VK4502, both forward and mid-ship mounted turret designs, are very interesting aberrations of the German design philosophy run amok, but I'd really like paper models of them just the same.

    As for obscure examples like the "Tiger (P)" (Porsche variant), the had some 90 or so built and were actually all converted into what was later known as the Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyers, so I wonder if some sort of kit-bash couldn't be worked out for them?

    Entwicklung series
    E-100 (one of the "Tiger III" variants planned)
    E-90 (one of the other Tiger III variants planned)
    E-100 STUG "Krokodil"
    E-90 STUG (drafted as a hetzer-like Tank Destroyer with lower profile, also called Krokodil)
    E-50 Jagdpanzer II

    beyond the "E" series, I would have preferred a proper representation of the Lowe tank, sadly WoT went with flawed data derived from the development confusion early on when there were to be 2 versions of the Lowe, a "light" and a "heavy". But the developers of the game have their reasons... Just the same a good paper model if the Lowe would be quite nice.

    As for other nations, some of the Soviet experimental tanks, like the myriad versions of the KV series that never saw much light would be fun to play with and craft. I'd of course love to have an IS-7 model to make just for the sake of having its preposterous development history.

    Other oddball models I'd like are the T28/T95, despite the developer's of World of Tanks, the two are one-and-the-same... The designation just changed mid-way thorough development. To add to the developer's confusion, the T28 in their game has the same body as the T95, with the outer-tracks removed (as it had 4 sets of tracks, not just 2) but that was a feature designed to lower the tremendous ground pressure of such a heavy vehicle, but the outer tracks could be removed for transport sake. Oh well, the information is freely available but the developers of the game made little use of it I guess...

    Major developments though like the T29 and T30 deserve models for what they represented, a massive leap in tank technology and armament scaled in near desperation (the T30 sported a 155mm cannon!) as a world-beater. Like the T28, the T29 and T30 as well were developed in fear of having to assault the Siegfried line, so tanks of tremendously heavy armor and armament were called on, and developed in extremely short order. While they only made a few prototypes and never saw combat, little did they know those designs would actually influence and be directly adopted into practically all the following U.S. main battle tanks until the M1 Abrams! That's some serious longevity!

    Well... I've rambled on quite a bit, and started in on a doctoral dissertation by accident... But it's fun to talk about hopes for models to come :mrgreen:
  3. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    No worries about your "dissertation", I found what you said to be quite interesting and I attribute the long discussion to your interest and excitement on the topic.

    We do have many similar interests in tank design and research. I have posted in the free download section simple models of the VK3001H and VK3601H that were approved yesterday. I have started to research the further VK developments that lead to the VK4501/4502 through the modelling website Henk of Holland. He has a page representing the E Series and the 3 VK4501/02 versions you mentioned below. If you google Henk and VK4501 it pops up easily. I like the fact that they really do represent in history and in physical form the continuation of the earlier VK3001H and VK3001P series...I love to build models so they progress from the original design to the later models so you can have a physical representation and learning tool that can accompany Hilary Doyle's great drawings on the subjects. I have found some drawings from some model companies that have made some of the VK4501/02 variants in polystyrene, good drawings with almost too much detail! If you can recommend where else to get drawings on the 3 VK4501s/02s please let me know, the more information the sooner I can produce a simple model. On Henk's site the Tiger (P) is shown with some other versions linked to the VK4501/02 family. It can get confusing to which is which I have found and require more study as there are variants of the variants as well. As you have done, WoT seemed to defined them with labels to make it more clear, but I have researched all 3 main versions fyi on the game, now sifting through the variant variants! I am actually working on a version of the VK3001P as we speak with the early turret used in WoT. As long as I can find decent drawings of the 3, they can be made. They exist in various scales in plastic and resin, so it shouldnt be too hard. I'll have to check my current records, I know the one with the Tiger I turret I have good drawings of currently.

    Some of the E-series I have drawings of, they are being produced slowly as resin and plastic models. I have my eye on the E-50 and E-50M, I like the turret variations as well as the E-75 as I was examining the different between them and the Panther II/Tiger II respectively. If you can direct me to drawings of the E-90s you mention below and the E-50 JadgII I'd love to see more info. on them. The E-100 I assume is the one in the game and the Krok E-100 I'm well aware of, some info is available on these but I havent looked into them. I'm intregued certainly at that E-50 JadgII!

    Regarding the two versions of the Lowe. The one version seen on WoT is being made in 1:35 finally in styrene and it seems to be more correct than the WoT version from what I see. The same model company also just released the the VK3002DB, corrected as well perhaps. For the second Lowe version, are you referring to the 'Indien'? If not, please let me know where I can find info. on the second Lowe.

    I published on our Zealot armour blog on the best method for making a round turret, it is all about my Lowe paper model kit. The layout for making the kit is there for download as well. You can also contact me directly and I can send it to you, it is very simplified but I put enough info. on it to produce a kit. I might put it in free downloads, but it is more of a layout than a designed kit. It is shown on the round paper model thread as well as on my personal page album 'Get Lowe'. I can also send a layout of the VK3002DB to you, just let me know and you can see how it came together. Both of these seemed to work better as a layout than a simplfied kit to put them together. I had to scrape together the best design images from the few drawings out there, I think I did an ok job so that a paper kit can be made. I think its pretty good for an amateur's paper model, I worked alot getting the hull and turret shape correct comparing the info. out there and WoT research.

    There are great drawings of the IS-7 out there in the 1948 turret version. Some plans of the 1946 turret are out there as well, but the 48' version seen in WoT is alot better looking. I have done a few KV's and worked out a system to get them looking nice. They are easy to make from the simple drawings I find and enjoy these thoroughly. I have done a T-50-2, T-43, T-34-85, SU-8, KV-3, KV-13 and recently a KV-1. I also started a simple S-51, which I need to rework but it should come out nice on a second attempt.

    As for the T95, most research refers to it as such with its extra tracks on or being dragged behind, I have done a plan to make the WoT T28 but have yet to build it. It can be made as the T95 or T28, but in the WoT the T28, T95 without extra tracks, has a front section under the main gun that I have never seen before in research pics, but makes for a difficult design without it. I think the WoT designers had the same problem as myself in working out how to make a decent looking T28 without having a hull front under the main gun. I made a plan for the WoT T28 with the added section, It will be easy to do a T95, but again, there will be no piece to support the structure under the gun. I have to build these at some point and work out the complex design on the front section.

    For the T29 line, I have info and would like to do the T29 with the turret that has the ears. Any of them can be made and are quite similar. I had quite a time finding drawings for the American T1, but made a great model of it once found.

    Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I really learned alot and enjoy the detailed discussion...T29 helped produce the M1...I had no idea!

    Right now I have been doing some research to produce the French TDs and AMX-50-100, 120 and 50B. All that exists are professionally done plans from the 1950s French Ministry of Defence. With my limited French, I hope to get these done as model kits after making the medium VKs.

    Later on I will publish my finished kit lists if there are more responses on this thread...love to hear what people wish to build! Check the free download sections for the simple kits VK3001H and VK3601H, if there is a desire I will put the Lowe and VK3002DB drawings on there as well. I am reluctant to do it atm as they are very simple and many might not be able to put them together without alot of research or instructions.

    Thank you so much....ramble on!

  4. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    Wow, a lot to reply to, so much of my answers will be out of order from how they were asked :mrgreen:

    First off, a great resource I've found over the years for reference sake are places like:

    Under the link for the Maus, it also has some diagrams of E-series tanks, and some of their development history.

    Sometimes the site is a little bit fiddly to look around, finding obscure topics like the "Schwarzwolf" aren't as easy as one may like: http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Schwarz Wulf.htm

    Obscure subjects, like the potential E-series tank destroyers are far harder to research. Aside from books on the matter, I can really only point you to imagery, some of it from models and games that happened to use the "look".

    For instance, the E-90 tank destroyer and so on:

    You can also look up how other designs have sort of been "renamed" like the "Aureole Tank" in the game Panzer Front, sadly the original tank design is entirely lost from what I can see under the fans of Panzer Front's incarnation. It was more or less to be a "super hetzer", much bigger and heavier gunned, derived from one of the heavier E series tanks, E-75, E-90, or E-100. Aside from some minor draft-work, it never even really got to blue-prints since there were numerous other designs for E series tank destroyers ahead of it.

    You've got to hunt hard for the odd ones on the internet, because unlike the E-100 that was actually in production and even had a prototype hull made, the E-90 was merely a forecast design, based on previous tanks being converted to tank destroyers, so they said "ok, what will this be then?" and came up with tank destroyer versions of the E-series tanks, and in several cases multiple versions of those TD's.

    All in all, for imagery and basic introduction to rare/obscure tanks, one my favorite sources to start from is:


    It has axis and allied tanks, among many many other things. For instance it even references the two different Lowe variants, Pz.Kpfw VII Löwe (Schwerer Model) and the VK7001 (VK1661)


    On the matter of the Russian tanks, I like their final development designs too such as with the IS-7, the development of the tank was a comedy of errors that kept being solved by someone saying "well, let's just make -it- bigger!" to the point that nearly made itself impossible. Even though the USSR had them, they were as much for show as anything, their practical usage was non-existent. They sadly took a similar route to the Germans in WW2 and said "well more armor and bigger guns make the tank perfect right?", meanwhile their main-battle tanks like the T-54 were easier to produce, faster, and best of all vastly easier to operate and get satisfactory results.

    Just like with the Maus, having a "world beater" tank isn't much use if it's impractical to bring to bare. But I love it anyway, just because of its obscure nature and interesting history.

    With the American tanks, I think I need to clarify myself, their T29 and T30's influence was on the "Patton era" tanks, that line ended with the introduction of the M1 Abrams, so it was UP TO the Abrams that a 1940's design scheme for the T29 and T30 influenced the interim tanks. Actually the T34 is in that mix as well, basically it is a T29 with a 120mm gun. Sometimes included in that experimental family is the T32 as well, but originally it was a M26 Pershing, up-armored and its hull was lengthened, also it had a modified turret to handle a different gun.

    I really hope that some of that is helpful to you, sadly a lot of useful design material, like forward, overhead, rear, and underneath imagery is nearly nonexistent on the internet, and my local libraries are simply not intended to be repositories of profoundly obscure militaria reference material that I'd be asking for.

    If anything there can be used though, please have at it and see what you can make of it! :mrgreen:
  5. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member


    I posted an extensive reply, with several links to several places with more imagery and information about the various experimental tanks...

    I'm guessing it's under review, or perhaps blocked. All of the links were perfectly safe, but I also completely understand with how rampant spamming by bots on message boards, why posts with links would be scrutinized.

    In case my previous reply/post doesn't show up, I will try to summarize what I said, and relay how to find the information yourself without links:

    Let me start by clarifying what I said about the American tanks, and their influences derived from the T29/T34/T30 prototypes. The M1 Abrams was its own development that actually won out over an arguably better design, but that's neither here nor there... The Patton series tanks, basically serving as the back-bone of the armor and main battle tanks post WW2 through the eventual rise of the M1 Abrams, were the tanks so heavily inspired from the T29/T34/T30 prototypes, I'm sorry to have caused any confusion.

    As for the obscura, sadly the most minute details aren't readily available on the internet. Most of it is either references to actual useful information, or predominantly side-images, which of course leave out how it looks from the top, front, rear, and under-side. All of which would be important for making a model out of.

    The best way to start however is our old friend Google.

    For instance, to look up the Lowe history of development:
    I recommend looking up "lowe tank" and the website "strangevehicles" is among the early results. Very good starting place there, as well as achtungpanzer, but I think one or both are basically copy/paste of one another.

    I would stick mostly to strangevehicles website for lots of side-shots of the E series tanks. For instance if you search "maus tank", and among those first links is another page on strangevehicles, there is not only a decent decription of the Maus development, but also comparison diagrams of E-series tanks and further down some of their own development information.

    Sadly, I've had to be a little cryptic in my response here, I'd very much like to show you precisely what I'm talking about, but I fear anything other than just plain text would be held up again...

    Also on the website are some Russian and U.S. designs (among others) some of which went well and others that failed miserably.

    For predominantly imagery only, ww2drawings is far and away the place to be, just type that into google and it's the first link. I believe it's a French website by the FR suffix, but an excellent resource to use for at least getting some idea of what many of these tanks looked like, and even some of their specifications.

    For instance, the particularly obscure design of the Jagdpanzer E-5 Rutscher, was to be a tank destroyer based off a light-tank hull (likely akin to a Leopard or E-25), but while it couldn't carry any world-beater weapon, it's trick was to carry TWO of them! Supposedly they were going to be 81.4mm... But anyway I digress...

    Lots of imagery and information, and often it's easiest to find images by just searching for that under Google's "images" function. I've found many many things, even very little known or used information and images of designs for weaponry only thought about once and then filed away in a circular filing cabinet.

    So sadly I can't seem to point out exactly what I want to show you, but at least the "how to find it" can be shared... I hope that helps :mrgreen:
  6. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hi NUK,

    Thank you so much for the links. Lancruiser is quite interesting indeed. The Schwartzwolf link is also fascinating, some of the research materials refers to that tank as the Panther III no? For the Maus, it would likely be lower on my list for a paper model not because it wouldnt be easy to do, but because model makers like Dragon out of Hong Kong have done an excellent job of it in 1:72 in a plastic kit as well as ready made die cast models of the Maus and even some of its experimental versions without the turret. They also did some E-100s as kits and die cast, wonderful models if you can find them.

    I've found some of the initial E-series TDs, but yes the ones higher up on the production line are obscure, and I am unsure whether or not it has more of the artist's concept in the plans as opposed to actual information. On the Schwartzwolf page there is a link to some of the plans, with an E-90 on there as well. It looks as if someone altered another plan beforehand, but whether or not it is the real tank or a concept someone had of one, they did enough to give me specs on a Panther III and E-90. Usually if I can get the side and top and there are no flat surfaces in the front I can still produce a model, maybe with an unfactual rear, but I can still make one. Therefore it looks as if the E-90s might be possible. The Panther III as well.

    I know of the French site quite well, and they have been adding some wonderful information over the years on all tanks from the era. I see the link you sent me, and I am wondering how many Krokodile versions there were and how different one is from the other. That might take some reading into simply to find out which definitions match which designs. The one you sent me is named Bieber's Project...would be awful if when they put this tank on WoT they decorate it with a bad haircut and pics of teen idols...an impressive beast, I will seek out a better name for it than Bieber!

    Most of the tanks I seek to build are ones that will likely not be produced anytime soon in plastic or even resin. Ironically, paper panzers referring to them never going beyond the initial development stages are the best candidates for being made by me in paper. Part of the idea is to represent the available research in a 3 dimensional representation. WoT has done a great deal to try to represent very obscure tanks in a graphic form, I just wish their designers would give us some 3-4 view drawings of some of their tanks and work so models can be made of their WoT versions of the tanks, promoting the game and knowledge of the subject in general.

    Ah the great Lowe, I have read rumours about the second Lowe with the rear turret being introduced into the game...I would love to find info to make a model out of the second Lowe...perhaps I can piece one together from the 1st Lowe..but until WoT puts up one I can get a good look at on the game, I would be guessing the details. Amusing Hobby is the company out of Japan that made the Lowe kit in 1:35 as well as a VK3002DB. I highly recommend checking out new build threats all over the internet..for someone who seeks proper design details, you would find it a fun read.

    This discussion is very helpful indeed and quite enjoyable! I agree with your points on the IS-7, really the IS-8/T-10 was the last real Russian heavy tank to be produced, and it likely why WoT stops at around 1962 as after that date most tanks were fast meds with big guns and high tech targeting systems. Victor sites this fact in a video interview to why he limited the game to that time period. For the M1 and American tank lines, I always found the tanks not produced to be as interesting as those used in service. Their whole heavy and TD project developments is just fascinating, and had given the guys who came up with the odd vehicles who created GiJoe with alot of information to work from!

    I'll check you second post now and give you some added info as well from my end!


  7. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hi NUK,

    Just checked out a page on the french site, and it had great side view comparisons of the Bieber and the original Krokidile, certainly different. I was looking at the E-90, and I am wondering if it isnt a E-100 chassis with a turret that looks similar to that of the E-50, but larger. The E-100 Ausf.B might be the E-90, likely not but it would be nice to know the difference. I guess it is different according to the french site as it has its own 4 view drawing?: http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/03-sPanzers/E-Series/E-100(2).htm

    Regarding the E-5, I have only seen very little info on it, do you have a link to more info or pics? Often even with a simple side view I can build the model, as it comes from a family of tanks and use similar parts. To have an idea of what it would look like just might be enough, and I think WoT has designed many tank models on the game from a simple side view as they have access in some cases to the same information as we do for their paper panzers. I wish there was a design community to share info. and come to a consensus of design details to promote the study of the subject, the game, modelling and an increased involvement of the subject in general culture.

    I'll include the two layouts of the Lowe and VK3002DB I mentioned before linked on here. I do not know if they would be suitable or accepted in the free models forum as they are not really layed out as kits, but kits can be made from them, so anyone who wants a copy, find it here. If you think it would be ok on the Free Models section please let me know. Enjoy!!

    In any case, below is a list of my currently produced models:

    Here is the list:

    Appx 1/87 and 1/72 Original Models:
    US T-25 TD/Assault Gun*
    Argentine TAM*
    French AMX-13*
    Italian Semovente 90/53
    Italian M11/39
    US T1 Heavy*
    German VK3001H*
    German VK3001H* - 2nd Attempt
    German Panzer III/IV*
    German VK3002DB* - Two Turrets: Regular and GroBturm
    Russian KV-3*
    Chinese YW531 Artillery
    French Crotale 3000 Desert Camo X2*
    French Crotale 3000 Jungle Camo X2
    French Crotale AA Twin Cannon Experimental System
    Russian SU-152P Object Kubinka*
    Russian SU-152G Object Kubinka*
    Russian SU-100P Object Kubinka*
    Russian SA-11 Gadfly Larger 2nd Attempt Larger
    Russian 2S4 Tuylpan* - OLD MODEL
    Russian 2S4 Tulypan – NEW MODEL
    Russian 2S5 Giaysint* – OLD MODEL
    Russian 2S5 Giaysint – NEW MODEL
    Russian SA-15 Gauntlet/TOR-M1*
    Russian TOR-M2 Wheeled Chassis*
    Russian ZSU-57-2*
    Russian 2S2/2S8 Failka Experimental Artillery Concept
    German Tiger Lowe*
    German Tiger Lowe – NEW MODEL*: Two Turrets: 2PieceCapTurret and CardboardTurret
    Russian 2S19 MSTA
    Italian Otomatic Air Defense System
    Chinese Type 88 SPG Air Defense System
    Chinese Type 88 Experimental (Turret Only)
    Russian ZSU-37-2 Yenisei RED MELTED
    Russian ZSU-37-2 Yenisei Experimental Air Defense System*
    Chinese Type 63 Amphibious Tank
    Russian Russian "Hetzer" Experimental TD/Assault Gun
    Russian Russian “Hetzer” 1st Attempt
    Chinese Type 69II
    Russian GAZ 'Jeep'* UAZ-469?
    GiJoe Cobra HISS I Tank 1982 Version
    Russian S-51 Artillery (Not Precise/Crooked)
    Russian T-80UD*
    Russian BMP-1
    Russian SU-8 Artillery
    Russian 2S7 Pion (Slightly Crooked Front and Back)
    Russian 2S7 Pion (Simple Model/Hand Coloured)
    Russian 2S3 Akatsiya
    Russian B-4 203mm Artillery Gun
    Russian 2S1 Gvozdika
    Russian T-43
    Russian T-46
    Russian GMZ-3 (Not Built with Full Details)
    Russian ML-20 Artillery Gun
    US T24 TD/Assault Gun
    US T40 TD/Assault Gun*
    German Panzer I SIG 33 Bison* (Desert Camo Self-Coloured)
    UK Centurion Mk.5 – OLD MODEL(Crooked Chassis/Low Gun/Turret sides Not Detailed/Forest Camo Self-Coloured)
    UK Centurion Mk.5 – NEW MODEL: Two Turrets: Normal and FV 4005 183mmTurret
    Russian T-34/85* (Desert Camo Self-Coloured)
    German Marder II* (Desert Camo Self-Coloured)
    Russian SU-152* (Desert Camo Self-Coloured)
    Russian KV-13*
    Russian KV-1 early
    German VK3001P (Smaller Model, Initial WoT Turret)
    Appx. 54-60 models

    Larger Scale Original Models:
    US T-25 TD/Assault Gun
    UK Matilda I
    French Crotale 3000 Desert Camo
    VK3002DB Turret Experimental Variant Rhombus
    US M7 Med/Light Tank
    UK M3 Grant (Very Large!)
    Russian T-50-2 (Desert Camo Self Coloured)

    Smaller Scale Original Models:
    Russian 2S7 Pion
    Russian ZIL-135 Uragan*
    Russian FROG 4*
    Russian SA-8 Gecko*
    Russian T-64 Tank
    German Panzer IVH Simple Model*
    Chinese Type 89 120mm Tank Killer
    GiJoe Slaughters Marauders 'Equalizer': Flakpanzer Gepard Style Tank
    Russian SA-11 Gadfly Small 1st Attempt
    German Tiger Lowe
    GiJoe Small Cobra HISS I Tank 1982 Version (Desert Camo Self-Coloured)
    UK M3 Grant
    German Sturmpanzer IV Brummbar Late

    Appx. 1/700 Varyag Russian Destroyer
    Appx. Smaller Russian AK-130mm Naval Cannon/Turret (Not Correct Shape)(Desert Camo Self-Coloured)
    Appx. Larger Russian AK-130mm Naval Cannon/Turret (Not Correct Shape)(Marine Camo Self-Coloured)


    Attached Files:

  8. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    Oh most definitely, there are as many opinions about the particulars of some of the obscure experimental tanks, as there are stars in the sky... And indeed there are many artistic interpretations of them as well.

    After the various facilities within Germany that were producing their "wunderwaffe" (wonder weapons) were taken one by one by advancing allied forces, only then were some of their actual advanced plans even discovered.

    For instance, there were rumors of a "super heavy panzer" in development, but nobody had any idea that 2-3 Maus prototype tanks were actually already being produced and being put through trial runs, and several turrets were in various stages of construction when their assembly plant was overtaken.

    As a result however of so many of the production plants being "seized" rather than just surrendered, often times it was Pvt 1st class Smith who was the first guy on the scene, and while he could recognize that they were weapons of war and documents of research, he simultaneously had little regard for their value and importance. As such profound amounts of specific data was lots and destroyed, and many of the things that survive are actually just photos and what intelligence officers reported after much of the paper research documents had either been lost, mishandled, or even destroyed.

    So there are simply oodles of photos of particularly obscure projects that were either failures or abandoned, but little to no background to them other than the image. Sometimes the project was taken back to England or even the U.S. for further research and reverse engineering if it showed promise, but so much was lost that it's really hard to put a measure on it.

    In large part, that was the impetus behind the "Operation Paperclip", an obvious and dire need was seen in gathering and preserving as much intellectual development and properties created during the war to help the allies investigate and eventually determine for themselves what best to learn from and carry forth themselves based on the ground already tread by the Germans.

    While numerous German scientists were brought back to the U.S. with Operation Paperclip, incredible amounts of documents and materials, more than enough to fill vast repositories, were also brought back and extensively cataloged, all in top-secret situations. Some of it has since been released, either willingly or by Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests to that effect. But there are still some things, likely potentially embarrassing or even dangerous, that are sealed away. Certain things the Germans tried and couldn't get to work, were also attempted by the U.S. and U.K. to comparably pitiful results, but such is the way of research.

    Another reference of some obscure materials can be found here: http://fingolfen.tripod.com/

    Not so much off the wall stuff, but -some- oddball variants like the VK4500 series and the like... It even references Projekt NM, a ludicrous plan like the Landkruiser P.1000 Ratte, but instead of using one massive tank, it was to be 3 Tiger hulls, with a large platform spread among them that carried several cannons in a "bunker house", sort of like a mobile fortress. It was so far beyond asinine as to make you scratch your head and wonder if a kindergartner suggested it, but never the less it was one among many ideas thrown about in desperation.

    Also some of the info about "zwilling" tanks such as the E-5 Tank Destroyer, or the E-100 with 8.8cm zwilling, are out and about, plans to either have dual cannons for AA purposes or simply to be able to "fire faster" at oncoming Soviet tanks. Obviously having 2 guns is preposterous, it doesn't make you fire any faster, it just takes twice as long to reload once you've fired.

    On that above site, there is a link for the E-10 Tank Destroyer, again very "hetzer-esque" in design, but finding specifics for even more obscure plans like the E-5 is more difficult still. Even the wikipedia page makes little more than a notation that the E-5 through E-10 were to be light tanks, APC's, and TD's which really tells you little to nothing about any specific variants.

    IF you can find it at your local library, I highly recommend books like "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two", it's exceptionally good for odd developments and of course the major developments in German tank technology. My copy is from 1978, but I -think- it has had multiple printings, so it may still be out and about. Definitely worth a look at least, maybe even in a book store or online.

    As for which ones to produce, I completely agree that the best ones to produce are the ones that don't already exist in some form or another. I'd love to see more and more paper models of the most obscure tanks from history as they are as important as the ones that are so prominent, not because of how great they were, but because of how important their development was in either doing something right or even doing something very wrong.

    Some ideas were ridiculous, and they ultimately weren't successful, but some that weren't all that successful such as the Ferdinand/Elefant (Tiger(P)) were made and used in other ways or were merely examples of an "oops!" in the annals of history and tank development. As such, I like them for their uniqueness and in spite of their failings because of the advancements they represent.
  9. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Yes, regarding interpretations you mentioned in a previous post that the WoT gang didnt get the Lowe exactly right. What did they miss, considering the only Lowe information I have seen was a Hilary Doyle 3 view drawing that gave very little detail itself. The jexiste site has a few that were recently published post WoT I believe. The only official Lowe designs seems to be the Doyle layout, with the WoT version there are the first real details. The new Amusing hobby model is different on the top of the turret and with the shape of the chassis portholes and a bit of a difference on the back engine details, and some 1/144 models out of Japan show one of the guns with a different mantlet. Which do you find the most correct after all of your research?

    Pvt. Smith, I think I dated his granddaughter! :p It is uncertain indeed what has been destroyed, but I do think your average GI may have taken better care of any found information that was discovered as there was always a sense of high tech german equipment being of great interest to the Allies by most involved in the conflict. I think perhaps alot of the information may be sitting in a dark basement in Russia or that most of the info, especially on tanks, may have actually been recovered if not burned by retreating germans. I do not know if there are any accounts of witnesses to other military projects out there that gave evidence of other programs we have never seen evidence of, and it seems that the evolutionary line seems to be logical in its progression. In many accounts as well, while many former German army members were not openly proud of the war, there was alot of respect and pride in the equipment, I dare to say many would have been proud to openly present what they were able to produce. I was quite content to know about Kubinka and it fairly recent opening of some formerly secret sections of the compound, it grabbed my modelling interest!

    Operation Paperclip..have any of those files or info been published online, or perhaps by Wikileaks :)

    I think I have a copy of the Encyclopedia of German Tanks from 93'? There is as much info online as well I find. The best resource which I would love to win in some contest as there are man volumes are the Panzer Tracts series.

    I would love to know your absolute top 5 X-tanks you would like to see produced, I assume all E-series. I suggest trying the VK3001H in the free section, it comes together well and lays in the middle of your historical interests...also its alot easier than a Lowe!


  10. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    Well, with the lowe for instance, it was actually intended to be one of the earliest tanks to use segmented applique armor which is entirely omitted, but somewhat understandable since the tank didn't see completion. Other quibbles with the in-game model for instance are the turret, because of the specifications of the Lowe, expected to use a 105mm cannon (minimum), the Germans would have had to use a larger turret, and larger turret ring.

    The devs did a reasonable interpretation, however the 105mm it sports would have required a turret measuring in about that of the E100, not like a Tiger II which was utterly incapable of mounting any 105 of the war, not even a howtizer, much less a high-velocity 105mm like a Flak 38/Flak 39...

    A gun like that is actually tremendously heavy, in emplacement form it easily weighs over 20,000lbs, and meanwhile a KwK43/PaK43 came in about about HALF that weight at around 9,700lbs. Revisions fo the two guns, without the emplacements would still have been world apart in both size and weight, to the point that the Tiger 2 would have had no possible way to use it with the Henschel turret (the one used in production), and in that same vein the size of a Lowe turret would have been quite large to handle such a large gun.

    This isn't to say that the WoT representation is bad, I just don't think it's the schwere lowe, it's far more likely the devs made the WoT lowe more in line with the leichte lowe particularly if you compare it to the specifications the fuhrer finally put upon the tank to have 140mm frontal armor and perhaps as much as a 150mm cannon... That would have been arguably not possible with Germany's engine and drive train technologies coupled with the crushing burden of their industrial capability being razed to the ground every few days.

    As to operation paperclip, indeed much of it is freely available, heck there were VERY large parts of Operation Paperclip directly involved with the U.S. Manhattan Project, including the bulk of the Uranium used was actually captured from Germany. The fissionable Uranium fuel taken from Germany was then brought to places like Oakridge TN where simply colossal facilities full of calutrons helped separate out the isotopes of U235 from the normal U238, and then put to work in the "little boy" bomb used against Hiroshima. But I digress...

    The various resources and pretty much all you're going to be allowed to know are fairly well published at this point, even the Operation Paperclip wiki has many many links and references to how large and involved it really was.

    As for my "absolute top 5", I'm not entirely sure...

    I must admit a great fondness for what potential the Entwicklung series held... But I have tremendous affection for other tanks as well.

    T30 Heavy Tank
    STUG E-100 Krokodil or E-90 Krokodil
    T95/T28 "super heavy tank destroyer"
    E-100 Heavy Tank

    Kind of even between the U.S. and German tanks, and I gotta admit my fondness for the IS-7 solely for it being such a "big fish" in WoT.
  11. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    That is very interesting indeed. So the plans we have from Doyle and others on the actual Lowe, is that the turret that can take the 105mm gun? From looking at the best sources on Doyle, Amusing hobby and WoT, it looks like the same turret, but is it the one intended in that case according to your information, they are all the leichte Lowe and no one produced the larger turreted schewere Lowe? Is the schewere the one with the rear mounted turret and a 105mm gun? Assuming all the production variables were at peak performance and discounting the reality of war damage to their production facilities, would they have been able to produce the schwere Lowe?

    Ah, Operation Paperclip wiki...that is my sunday afternoon!

    For your list:

    T30 Heavy Tank-shouldnt be a problem. I wanted to do the T29, and the T30 is very similar!

    STUG E-100 Krokodil or E-90 Krokodil - I know there are resin models of the E-100 Krok out there, I'd have to get at least 3 view drawing which shouldnt be too hard. Same for the E-90 version, which I think is more scarce. I could maybe build a drawing from other parts, this might work better with the E-90. I might be repeating myself, and if I am I apologise, but do you have or know where to find 2 and 4 view drawings of these two?

    T95/T28 "super heavy tank destroyer" - aleady made the base plans for producing both of these. I had to reconstruct the T28, biggest issue as I mentioned is that front section that does not exist but leaves a structural gap in the model. I made a simple T28 WoT version though. I can send these both to you in private on email if you wish, I think they are too simple to put on Zealot at the moment, I havent yet built them.

    E-100 Heavy Tank - Great models of this out there in plastic and die cast. It sould be easy to do with the 4 view if I can find it, I might have it already. Boxy is good, side skirts are curved which might give some trouble.

    IS-7 - I have a 4 view drawing of the 48' version, and I think a 2 view of the earlier 46' version. The earlier version has a uniquely curved turret which would be hard to do indeed, but the better looking 48' version would be a nice project. A great choice!

    I just finished a VK3001P yesterday, quite nice, I will make another one with the tiger P turret later on.


  12. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    The representation of the Lowe in WoT is merely the product of insufficient information coupled with their limited understanding of the weaponry and their weights. Overall the Schwere Lowe, what they have sort-of kind-of tried to make in WoT is undersized. It would have had to be about the size of the E-100 to sport the same class of weaponry as the E-100. Meanwhile, the developer's simply not knowing any better "invented" a KwK 45 L/52 that was 105mm for the Tiger 2.

    The KwK 45 was part of a research program to make a newer 75mm barrel for the Panzer V Panthers that was L/100 and thus even higher velocity than it was before, compared to the existing 75mm L/70, but at nearly 50% longer than the already long L/70, it was a preposterous effort and with velocities already pushing the limitations of the materials in the barrel, it'd have to be made into a "three part barrel" for the sake of replacement comportment.

    Anyway, the Lowe should more or less be comparable in size to the E-100, solely because of the cannon and turret it was expected to carry. The devs made it much closer to the Tiger 2. The important difference is that the E-100 was to be about 14'8" wide, and 10'10" tall (hull length is comparable); while the Tiger 2 was 12'4" wide and 10'2" tall, or basically the E-100 had to be about 15-16% wider than the Tiger 2 in order to carry a comparable gun that the Lowe was expected to wield.

    Again, it all comes down to a "design decision" for the Lowe on the developer's part, they decided to make it similar to a Tiger 2, and as for the stats in-game they chose early development stats rather than the final "overriding decision" by Der Fuhrer to make the tank more heavily armored and faster.

    As to any of the tanks being made into paper models, if the models in World of Tanks could somehow be extracted like some of the other models I've seen here, I'd think that would at least be the easiest place to start, and the textures and light maps already exist so that'd be a heck of a bonus.

    I am honestly not sure if the files are complete, but being that the game client presumably has to have all of those textures and models in order to render them, it's not too much of a leap of logic that they are contained within the "World_of_Tanks\res\packages" folder.

    The files are in .pkg format, which upon tinkering (oh, and for your own sake ALWAYS MAKE A BACKUP BEFORE FIDDLING!), I could open with .7z since .pkg files are merely another form of .zip compression.

    Within the file "vehicles_american.pkg" I've found all the goodies in the game for textures at least, lots of .dds files at


    The format numbers all the American vehicles as "A" then a number "14" is simply the 14th in the list, and then the "name" of the tank "T30" in this case:

    and the other two files "crash" and "collision"

    In there are LOD folders which containing various model files for the tanks, hulls, guns, and even their damaged and wrecked states, neat stuff...

    Thankfully the models in WoT seem readily accessible, I just don't know how much work it would be to more or less "flatten" them and segment them into parts to later be made into a paper model...

    I hope that at least points you in the right place though :mrgreen:
  13. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    That is fascinating what you said about the Lowe. After my last post I did a bit of research and I discovered that WoT is now making the leitcher Lowe, the one with the rear mounted turret and the Indien Tiger, which shares alot with the schwerer Lowe, or the tank we know as Lowe, undersized as it may be. I think they may have worked from the groud up using the Tiger II chassis as a base as it looks similar to the Lowe, instead of going from the gun down. I am unsure if Doyle published the measurements, but in either case with the two new Lowe's on Wot, maybe the Lowe will be remade to not be a premium and be in the normal line of tanks.

    I also found the E-5 1 view drawing on jexiste website in the E series category.

    It is a large learing curve for me to go into my WoT files, but from what you have seen is it black and white drawings of the tanks in the files or images of the tank animated from the game? Maybe they would be suitable for a 3D printer if not able to flatten.

    The main tanks I have had little luck finding info on are the American T49, nothing on this tank nor are there images from other tanks I can use. The T25 Czech/German also has just a 1 view with no other images. VK2801 is also limited, I'd love to do this one along with the 1 view drawing of the GW Panther!

    Mostly I prefer Russian and French tanks, and I have had limited success finding good French drawings, especially for the Lorraines and the BatChats. Chinese tanks are interesting, but very little modern and classic drawings are available at all. I like many newer and older Chinese tanks as I am mostly a fan of Russian tanks and the Chinese are odd variations of classic Russian designs, very fascinating and hard to find. I find its like how many French tanks are somewhat related to some German tanks, like a modernisation of German machines with a bit of a sci-fi element in their designs as they are also uniquely French.

    For Russians, I actually reconstructed the T-46 and SU-8 out of other models, I love these two and how they turned out. I also did a S-51 that needs some tidying up to make it right as it is hard to do a artillery gun out of paper. KV-4, Obj 212, IS-6, Obj 263, 261, 268 lack proper info as well. I'm hunting for 3-4 views of the IS-6, KV-4 and Obj 212 most intensely...might be able to build it from other parts for the two latter. SU-122-44 and SU-100M1 has limited 1 view info., currently thinking of how to piece one together of each from a T-44.

  14. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    Well, if in doubt, use the muscle work that the developers of WoT (wargaming.net) have already done for you on many of the French and Russian tanks.

    As to the game files, from what I can tell, all the models and textures are in "Games\World_of_Tanks\res\packages" folder.

    The .pkg files can readily be unzipped, but again COPY AND PASTE them elsewhere to unpack and fiddle with, you don't want to mess up your game after all.

    The specific files, one for each nationality, are:


    Using the first one, vehicles_american.pkg as an example, when you look into them or unzip them, you can then see a folder "vehicles", and inside of that is "american", and inside that folder are individual sub-folders for each specific American tank, and at the bottom are two other folders for "camouflage" and "tracks".

    Looking in a specific tank's folder has 3 more folders (collision, crash, normal), and below them are several .dds files, which are the textures and light-maps.

    Just to test the theory, I loaded one of the .dds files in photoshop (which requires a free add-on to open .dds), and the textures were all there, but I wouldn't know how to arrange/attach them to particular parts of a tank, thankfully the parts are recognizable and I could likely figure out what goes where in time.

    In concert with a model/frame to unwrap/flatten, the files could readily be made into impressive models.
  15. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hi No,

    I will have to fiddle with it when I have more time and are more confident in voyaging into my WoT code. I think what you are describing is a layout of the model that some programs provide to show all the parts of the 3D model. I actually used one of these from a designer who provided his layout for some of his models, I made a French Crotale 3000/4000 series anti-aircraft missle system this way, my first real paper model.

    I was wondering, what were the last few models you have worked on? As well, are you interested in modern tanks and vehicles as well as the older US and German ones? WoT will put up a Leopard I soon!

    You are extremely well read on these topics as well? Due to your interest in US Tanks, do you live in the US? Do you work as a historian or are in the military?


  16. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hi No,

    So I took your advice and fiddled with the French tanks folder, namely the AMX ELC. I got to the point with the LOD folders and found the normal chassis file, but none of my programs (Gimp2, Sketchup, Pepakura) could open the file. I downloaded a program called Paint.net and it opened the DDS files, but when you go to the normal folder, there are files (MODEL, PRIMITIVES, VISUAL) that do not open. What are these, and how do you open them?

    I found a way to get DDS files to work on Gimp and I think I can edit these files like any other. There are a few DDS files for each vehicle, one the normal layout, another a whitish one, and a purple one...what are these for, texture? The white one might be of best use. I see not all parts are in the accessable DDS files, I assume they are in the normal folder? When you opened them, what did you see when you found chassis, the 3D image of the chassis or just a layout or 2D image?

    This is very fun, thanks!

  17. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    Well, as for my knowledge of tanks and the like, I've studied WW2 and particularly the weaponry of WW2 for quite a while, and over the years it just seems to have "stuck". I usually can't remember all the finest details verbatim from memory, but I can certainly recall the references and then relocate the particulars from what I can recall.

    I am from the U.S., but the history of weaponry and warfare in general have always interested me, regardless of the nationality.

    On the matter of the game files...

    With the .dds files, different .dds files can be used for different effects, based upon the letters/abbreviations used, I'd think "T30_NM.dds" for instance, is a "Normal Map" texture, used to more or less get more visual benefit to a model's appearance, without having to make it out of more polygons.

    The file T30_SM.dds, is likely a "Shadow Map"... And so on and so forth with the various versions of the texture files.

    All of that said, those are for the sake of rendering in a game and to give realistic appearances based upon angles of light and the tank's movement and so on, but for our sake in the real world making real models from the source material, a plain texture map is all we really care about, since we have real lights and real angles without having to "render" the lights and shadows artificially.

    The models themselves are most likely in three "intertwined" parts, split among the .model, the .primitives, and the .visual files. How they work together, I honestly do not know...

    However, if you google "WoT Model Editor", there are actually programs already pre-made available that can allow the altering and fiddling with WoT models... To what ends, I also do not know, I haven't tinkered with that aspect of it at all. The Editor I think shows the most promise is WOT Model Editor, on the Curse website for WoT game mods and skins.

    I would think, once the models themselves can be edited and/or extracted they could either be changed to another format that can be unwrapped, or at least ported over to some more workable format... How any of that can be accomplished however I can't say...

    Anyway though, I hope that helps.
  18. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hi No,

    I've been able to open the .dds files, the only issue I have had is finding the wheels and tracks for the models, which I think are in piece in the layout or in the other files I cant access. I'll check out the program you mention, I am looking for something that can turn the layouts into line drawings, there was one program I found but it didnt work once downloaded. From what ive seen, some better than others, I can likely make most models in the end if I adjust brightness and contrast so I can recolour the items in the end. Been hunting for side track views for some rarer models in the end.

    I'll check that program you mentioned, what does it do besides read dds files?


  19. NobodyUknow

    NobodyUknow Member

    The textures for the road wheels, return wheels, and drive wheels all seem to be in the same .dds file as the overall tank textures...

    The treads however are another story altogether... They have their own separate file within each nationality at the very bottom of the list, along side each tank.

    So for instance in the main file for American tanks it'd be located at:


    and then within that folder, are different track files and their shadow/normal map files as well, all in .dds format.

    I downloaded the program and checked it out a little bit, in the main menu there is a message:

    I have to admit my limitations at that point, while I have fiddled with Photoshop for many years, that is also my extent with such things... I have not dabbled into Maya or 3DS Max and the like, so modeling in them (or even editing pre-existing models) isn't really what I know...

    To fiddle with the textures is easy enough, GIMP and Photoshop can do that to your heart's content, but tread lightly until you're certain you can do what you intended to. It's all too easy to go too far...
  20. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

    Hi No,

    Yes, it seems as if some parts, if duplicated in the final model are on the original dds file. I did see the tracks files as well, and it seems as if many types of tanks use the same tracks, as there are only a handful of tracks files for quite a number of tanks. I am guessing the other files under normal adjust the model so that the tracks work and spin in the game. Still doesnt give me a graphic representation of the tank tracks which is what I need, but that is addressed in the next issue...

    I downloaded the WoT model editor, it is no longer being updated apparently, and it didnt work for me. Did you get it working? Maybe I missed sthg?

    Are there other programs or ways to see the entire model to see it still and at other angles? I tried the WoT model editor and one other, both didnt work. I think if I found a program that could so this I could get the complete tracks I need as well as design other art on the tanks and view how it goes together...that would be sweet!


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