Designer vs User

Discussion in 'General Card Modeling' started by rickstef, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. goney3

    goney3 Member

    Well Kevin, frankly I am highly offended at such an accusation. :mad:
    It is NOT my fault that you do NOT understand how copyright and creative commons works.

    If you took a second to even look at the LEGAL backings to Creative Commons you will find the answers to your questions.

    I for one, as a DESIGNER, have made sure to put the Creative Commons on all my models.

    There is a lot of discussion here regarding if you can modify or change, or re-sell a modified work from another designer (thats how this thread started). What I keep telling you is that the Creative Commons spells out in plain English what an end user can or cannot do with a designers work. Now if you want to bring PIRATING into this issue, that is completely OFF TOPIC.

    And the linking of "massively multiplayer online role-playing gaming" and WAREZ is complete nonsense. One is an online role-playing game (usually with a EULA, and the other is, well, PIRATED SOFTWARE (NO EULA TO SPEAK OF). The faint remote idea that a PIRATE site would have "a powerful End User License Agreement" is total BS! :roll:

    I also fail to understand how my "few posts to the discussion" validate you saying that there is NOTHING of value from them. Its like Bill O'Rielly saying "Cut this punks mic!". Again, I am offended at your accusations that I somehow post links for the Creative Commons. I call you out on this one sir, you are completely out of line!

    Creative Commons compliments Copyright, its not competing with it.
    This is a VERY good solution for designers who want to protect (or share) their works. That way end users will not "accidentally recolor a model causing the internet to explode".
  2. Kevin G

    Kevin G Member

    Well I honestly didn't mean to cause such serious offense.
    As I have already stated, I agree that the Creative Commons is a wonderful tool that should be used for the very reasons that you state.

    I don't understand how you think that pirating is off topic unless you mean for CC purposes, since I could find no CC that restricted redistribution except for commercially. Actually every CC I could find clearly stated that you could redistribute it, wich brings in to question how useful it would actually be for a designer that does not want his design redistributed at all.(please point me in the right direction if I managed to miss the "no redistribution" part)
    I am sure that I have seen something along the lines of "this model is for personal use only and may not be redistributed...." But I can honestly say that I have never seen anything stating "this model may not be altered, recolored, rescaled..." on any model I have ever looked at, and that is exactly the point I was talking about in an earlier post. You can't honestly tell me that just because it says "in plain english exactly what a user can and can not do" that you believe for one second that it will stop anyone but an honest person from doing exactly what it says they cant do including recoloring, modifying, redistributing. How many people do you think actually read these liscenses?

    These examples were just to illustrate my point about how many people dont care about copyright or user liscences. The software and MMORPG both have EULA's that clearly state that you can not redistribute them, use any third party program to modify them, (sounds just like the issue here doesn't it?) as were discussed earlier in the thread. And the "all powerfull EULA" comment was directed towards the MMORPG and software,to illistrate how few people actually take the time to read it anyways and go right ahead and violate it, not the torrent and warez sites. Yes i agree that a warez site with a EULA would be total BS.

    I understand that CC compliments copyright. And I also agree that it will stop an honest user from going against the designers wishes, IF you can get him to read it.

    First of all, I agree that my comment about you posting for CC was out of line. I appologise for that, dont expect you to forgive me but i appologise anyways.

    Nowhere in my post did I say that there is "nothing of value" from them, I said that "you had nothing to say".
    It is obviouse now that I worded it wrong, its not that you had nothing to say, it's that you said nothing. You obviously have alot of knowledge about this but you chose to post a link to a flashy little movie that tells you almost nothing about the CC instead of actually disscussing the issue. The only video that was even somewhat in depth was the "copyright problems facing all americans". Although I will say that they did get me to go to the site again and dig around for the better part of the day. What I am trying to say here is that you obviously have the knowledge to talk about these things and probably do a much better job than that video does. You have also actually used the CC on your own creations so you could add so much more to the disscussion than that cartoony video does.

    I appologise for any offence I have caused to anyone else reading my posts also. It was not my intent to stir up trouble and hopefully we can get this sorted out in short order.
  3. Bowdenja

    Bowdenja Active Member

    Man am I glad that I haven't posted anything to this thread.................dang.............. messed that up didn't I:grin:

    I think we need a time out.

    bottom line.............. Copy rights are only followed by honest people............... We need to adopt as a site the policy of:

    IF a model (PDF) is locked or password protected..................BEFORE posting anything on a public site......... ASK FIRST. You can still do whatever you want for yourself, but respect the designers original intent of no public changes to be made to HIS design/model.

    (Ummmmmmmm this is news to me, so yes you call still teach an old dog new tricks). I have to admit that I NEVER thought re-coloring could be a problem.............. BUT I also did not look at it from a designer perspective either.

    Maybe we could have sticky of procedures that everyone coming to the site can see...............

    Now everyone............shake hands and let's get back to making some models. I'm having airplane building thread withdrawals!:grin:

  4. Lex

    Lex Dollmaker

    If this trend progresses to a personal argument then it might as well be done in PM's. Now let's get back to designing some models ;)
  5. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    All the agreements can be superseded by either the laws of the state or country you live in. Just because there is a statement limiting your use or a company's liability, it is the state or country's law that is the final rule on what you can or cannot do. That is an exception is in every EULA I have ever read.
  6. RacerX

    RacerX Member

    goney3, if you did read the whole thread, you might have seen i linked to the CC site in the 8th post and just asked that maybe the designers could take a look at it, rather than try to shove it at them.
  7. goney3

    goney3 Member

    I also posted these:

    Please watch:
    Copyright Problems Facing All Americans (VERY IMPORTANT!)

    Eyes on the Fair Use of the Prize

    These are HUGE for people who live in the United States. Not only for paper models, but your access to history and freedom.

    If you have read ALL the threads/topics regarding the current issue you would see that I have posted in all of them about the Creative Commons. I can't stress the importance enough for designers who want to allow certain uses of their work... likewise adding "All Rights Reserved" to their models in bigger print if they don't want to go down the open-sharing of their models.

    I keep getting a resounding "I dont know" from everyone which is making me scratch my head wondering how I can word it anymore clear.
    I am NOT forcing anyone to give up all uses of their models, but stating that this IS an alternative to "I dont know" when it comes to the user having to understand what they can or cannot do with a model. Even if that includes printing it out, drawing on it with some crayons, then posting pictures on here for people to see.

    Where the line is drawn for "copyright infringement" can be VERY scary if you think about it.

    "Only 18 (out of 200) territories are net exporters of license fees and royalties. This means that a few people living in less than a tenth of the territories in the world between them receive the US$30 billion of net export earnings for these services.

    The International Monetary Fund explained that royalties and license fees include "international payments and receipts for the authorized use of intangible, non-produced, non-financial assets and proprietary rights ... and with the use, through licensing agreements, of produced originals or prototypes ...". Thus these export earnings are payments for past ideas."

    Please forgive me RacerX if I take my freedom, and the future freedoms of my kids VERY SERIOUSLY. You must understand that it "wasn't always like this" our countries founding fathers are most likely rolling in their graves right now. Watch the first video I posted above to learn more.
  8. Nekayah

    Nekayah Member

    We seem to have two fundamentally different views of human nature which guide our attitudes toward copyright and even piracy.

    1. Most people are out to rip us off, and we need to fight back with every tool we can devise, even if it is only through invective. We are very angry that other people are so bad and we are puzzled that otherwise good people
    can't see the world as it really is.

    2. Most people really want to do right, but most people also make mistakes on occasion. When they learn that they have made an honest mistake, they usually try not to do that particular thing again. Some people ARE out to rip us off, and that is sad, but it would take all of our time and energy to stop all of them (or maybe even a single selected one) and we would still fail.

    In the nature of things, I am confident that my view is the only realistic one. How can YOU be so wrong-headed?

    We just are not going to agree about this, OR about whether there is any use trying to improve understanding of copyright since we can't stop those determined to violate it.

    We are here because we DO agree about two things: we enjoy paper modelling and sharing our experiences with it. Many of us are unhappy because we are spending so much time and heat on this argument. We
    could try to stay off the argument, but it has a fatal fascination and we wouldn't succeed.

    I have a semi-serious suggestion: set up a new off-topic section called something like LET'S FIGHT! where we can go when we really can't stand keeping quiet about piracy and copyright (or some other contentious topic) for another minute. I tried something like this on a local network before the Internet existed. It worked, and it was even fun.
  9. goney3

    goney3 Member

    I don't think its about fighting as it is about understanding the situation that we are all in. Times are changing right now, the open source free movement is gaining momentum by the minute. The One Laptop Per-Child is making huge headway for a massive release later this year, this will teach MILLIONS of children around the world about the sharing of creativity and knowledge.

    Now to keep this on topic in regards to paper models.
    There should be two choices...

    1) Boldly state "All Rights Reserved" on all works and prints.

    2) Use a Creative Commons if you, the designer, would like some uses of your copy-righted model.

    Now this can't do anything for pirates, but can make it clear to people who do re-colors of models (what started all this) or people who want to build on someone else's previous (possibly unfinished) works.

    We can do great things if we all just got along and worked together. :)
  10. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    I think goney3 is right that this is a critically important issue right now. These ideas are in play for the first time since the advent of the printing press. How these issues get decided may well affect information and art for a very long time.

    As an American living in China, I have a lot of first-hand experience with what a society can be like if there is no respect for IP. In a word, I would say "bleak", at least from an artistic viewpoint. When there is little or no enforcement of IP protection, you end up with a society unable or uninterested in creating, and markets filled with lots and lots of low-grade copies of cr@p.

    In the PRC, reporters routinely cut-n-paste articles published in papers in other parts of the country or abroad, maybe with a few name changes to make it appear local. If you visit typical art shops, you will feel an intense deja vu because you see the same paintings over and over, just copies by anonymous "artists" (I would call them "painting technicians") who make dozens of identical copies at a time. Few talented people will bother creating such works, they will just be instantly copied and sold at a lower price. Each year thousands of books are translated into Chinese, but very few Chinese books are translated into other languages. Why not? There is little worth translating, because no one will put much work into a book that someone else will instantly copy and run away with your sales. Industrial design? Television? Music? Film? Advertising? All in the same situation in China, a sea of low quality copies of foreign ideas because there is no incentive to innovate. In China there is no shortage of intelligent, clever, people with good imaginations, however, they face a strong DISincentive to use those abilities, which harms the entire society.

    My point is, the price for getting this wrong is VERY high.

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