Designer vs User

Discussion in 'General Card Modeling' started by rickstef, Jun 1, 2007.

  1. rickstef

    rickstef Guest

    Not quite Spy vs Spy, but what the hey....

    I will be the one to start this thread
  2. SteveM

    SteveM Member

    I believe that downloadable models should be covered by a license agreement where you as the copyright holder give a license to the user to print it. Being a contract, you can put whatever you want in the license, such as the clause "Rick Steffers is hereby denied any use of this file for any purpose" or whatever. Or more typically a generic termination clause that allows the licensor to terminate the licence at any time for any reason.

    Having said that, it doesn't mean I would think it reasonable to include such a clause.

    Moving the subject along... with respect to "repaints" for personal use, I think it is no different than letting the user cut and fold the model to begin with. I mean how is a "bad" paintjob (in the eyes of the designer) any worse than an incompetent build?
  3. MAJOR

    MAJOR Member

    'Aint visited in a while, but i think that a thread in the 'fourm help' is throwing up a few questions that might be relevent to this whole subject
  4. barry

    barry Active Member


    Carl if you really wanted to do that I suppose you could name any organisation or person, don't think it would do any good though.

    After all the fishing and arguments I don't think I will offer anything for free again as it looks to be too much hassle so if it's good enough I will charge, at least that way there is no argument where I am coming from. If it's not good enough then it can sit on my shelf as a reminder to do better next time.

    This will be unpopular as a statement but I think it is all about money and I do not think I have ever seen so many people demanding that something should be free with so little thanks. Do they work for nothing I wonder ?

    You will be lucky if you get 10 emails from anywhere outside this forum. Then there are the hangers on who want to do you a huge favour by making money from your work of course their work and expenses has to be paid for after all they had to burn a disc full of copyright material and advertise it on Ebay but as they say they did for the public good.

    Years ago I was told if you give things away you get nothing but contempt nobody values a freebie, sadly I am beginning to think he was right.

    I am weary of seeing headings on the lines "Want xyz must be free" why not "Want xyz" on this forum you will get information on what is free. I am reminded of the guy who once wrote that Aircraft carriers were too expensive and any fool could a make few lines on paper. I have to tell him he missed out the 2 years practice to even get to that level unless of course he was a genius. The answer to him should have been there are not that many people with enough room for a 50" long x 7" beam and 10" to the top of the superstructure model. So if you were going to go into print on glossy paper with no mistakes it's going to cost you and you could easily fall flat on your face. Letting one out for self printing does at least leave you only the cost of doing the job in the first place and of course the price of running and maintaining an internet site to sell it from.

    Before I took up designing my own ships I bought ships from Mike and DN and I have to say they were the cheapest and best 6 months entertainment I had.

    ps this discourse does not apply to the guys who said "PLEASE someone design a Majestic carrier" that's a word that seems to be left out so often at all levels of society these days. Sorry I come from a world long past it's sell by date but I preferred it.

    pps I will probably end up wishing I had not written this but ....................
  5. dansls1

    dansls1 Member

    Is it any different to re-paint a free model, purchase a model - scan it and repaint it or to build a model and then paint it using markers / paints? Assuming all is done for personal use with no distribution.
  6. shoki2000

    shoki2000 Active Member

    As long as everything is done strictly for personal use - you are free to do as you please.
    If you want to show your modifications publicly, it would be vise to ask the designer if it's ok with him/her...

    GB - as for your question to exclude somebody - as a designer and copyright owner you may put any restrictions you wish. Enforcing them would be a totally different story....
  7. RacerX

    RacerX Member

    I mentioned this once befor in a thread, but I'll say it again. I really think designers should take a look at useing the creative commons licenses. read about them here:

    That would let you cover your work in any way you want, and make it clear without people always having to track down the designer to ask.
  8. cgutzmer

    cgutzmer Guest

    Well I might as well pitch in my two cents.....

    If a designer releases a locked pdf - then dont modify it at all without getting permission first (or at least trying)

    If I ever get around to making my own creations EVERY model I release will have my contact info on that pdf somewhere, email, website, snail mail addy - something so that the person that wants to play with it can try to contact me. Sure it might not be valid forever but at least an effort can be made. There will also be a line saying something like you may recolor for personal use only. Please contact me if you wish to make this recolor public or would like to distribute with the recolor.

    I personally would not even recolor for completely personal use without first trying to contact the creator. Granted sometimes its not possible because you dont know where it came from but you can always ask here about it and if no one knows then you at least gave it a shot.

    Heck maybe the creator will have been considering something similar and get you the original files to work with or something - along with ideas, possible research - a friendship/working relationship could be established even.... cant beat that!

    Well I think that makes at least some sense, I was kinda pulling it out of you know where as I was going along....

    p.s. racerx - gonna check that out.....
  9. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    Maybe this forum could create a standard or standards that apply to models offered by its members om this site. I just can help thinking of all the custom car shows, the replica flying aircraft that are made without regard to any of the original manufacturers. Highly customized vehicles that enter national car shows, or national air shows like the E.A.A. at Oshkosh. Think about the custom cars that sell at Barret Car Auctions. There is not kick back to Ford or Chevy. I think once you print the model you can do whatever you want to it, blow it up with firecracker, paint is a solid color, change the wings so it flys better and then start a thread saying look what I did with the model designed by so and so. Most of these models are built with the same technique. Formers and panels, or fold up and glue. Next someone will argue that I built that plane first and you copied my design. It didn't work for Orville and Wilber, (the Wright brothers). The more detailed the model, the more they will resemble each other. It would be wrong to copy and sell a copyrighted model, however you can make your own back up, or can you? As far as contacting the publisher for permission to show your modified model, if you are not offering it up, I think that is ridiculous, so long as you list the original models designer and state your modifications. I repainted my motorcycle helmet, I don't think I needed to contact Shoei. My brother-in-law designs carbon fibre components for name brand cars, he doesn't have to contact them. If everybody who sold after market parts in this or any other country had to contact the manufacturer for permission, the economy would collapse. You just can't claim they are original Equipment. We are talking about paper planes here. Some of the software people use is supposed to be for personal use. A student edition of Rhino 3d cost far less than the commercial version. I wonder how many people are using software and respect the EULA.

    ARMORMAN Guest

    As a designer who has done both free and for purchase only kits, If you buy it from me, as long as you don't scan and resell or post a pirate version of a purchased kit, I don't mind seeing what someone does with it. I like to see somone creating something new off my designs (as long as the original is credited and the above is not violated).
  11. SteveM

    SteveM Member


    You are correct that once you have purchased an item, you are free to modify it or dispose of it any way you wish. Copyright is only the right to produce copies, not control those copies once sold.

    However that does not apply so directly to downloadable models. Because you are not buying an instance of a copyrighted work as you would a printed kit. You are assuming the role of a publisher and not just a consumer. And as a publisher you are being given a license to publish a limited number of kits for particular uses as specified by the license agreement. That is why it is prudent to ask the designer before making modifications to a downloaded kit even if it is only for personal use.

    As for the issue of models of the same subject naturally becoming indistinguishible even if developed independently. Possible, but unlikely. There are many possible ways to achieve the same final shape.
  12. goney3

    goney3 Member

  13. silverw

    silverw Member

    Hi Barry... and I'm glad that you did!!

    I completely agrree with what you said!!

    We are POLUTTED with ungrateful collectors , who won't even bother to say hello, after downloading your model!!
    I won't even comment on the guy who got mad because somebody showed how HE did the Model!!!

    I would be very thankful, if somebody showed a picture of one of my models that they had built!!.... and if it had inspired a NEW model..... even better!!!

    I think that we need to go to a place where the only thing that people want to do is build models out of paper.

    Hi ...Gil!!!

    PS The only really good thing about all the feceses that has been going on lately... is that I donn't tune in here much any more!!.,..

    Gives me more time to just build a model out of paper!.............................

    I've been working on a a "WESTJET"version of the Cannon 380' but as I don't have "permission" from Cannon... or WESTJET....
    I guess I'll not be showing the results here!!!

  14. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen...,

    Sorry, I've been a bit busy as of late. Starting and running a startup is taking a horrendous (love that word) amount of time. I'm learning HTML on the side right now (not exactly swelling my neo cortex that) and still have PHP & MySQL for Dummies to feed on let alone two other hafta reads for the startup followed by detailed equipment specifications, full blown business plan, meeting blurs and a whole mess of other stuff that may not ever get done.

    Now what was it you guys were carping about? Oh yes, DRM for cardmodels and the amount of disrespect designers feel from the dregs of the internet society. My take on is if you don't want to suffer from the way things are then become a proponent to make the necessary changes to correct the offending conditions or just leave. I'm beginning to sense that the latter condition has already taken its toll. Many models haven't been released by their designers due to the downside risk of losing control of it. I know I'm one of them. I have a strange feeling that if the "kit" consists of already perfectly cut parts that the rights management and piracy nearly disappear. Book form is too easy to copy. Cut parts require physical effort to copy and won't look that good when scanned. Very similar to plastic models. Just one idea rattling around, there are more...,

    I'm trying to relax now by learning Maxon's BodyPaint 3D so I can paint and render a 3D surface before importing it back to Rhino for placement on developed surfaces. Yes, photorealism surfaces on cardmodels. Yes, Pinky, World domination is possible, I just have to figure out how its done first...,

    Did I manage to tell you that it's made of paper....,

  15. Maurice

    Maurice Member

    Does one laugh or cry ?
  16. silverw

    silverw Member

    Let nothing you dismay

    Let nothing you dismay!

    Only 62 days to go!! ... Then I'm "retired" ... and will have an endless time to study all this fantastic software and "STUFF"!!

    Loonie-tunes.... here we come!!..woo..hoo.. woo..hoo..:)

    Maurice... do one of those things where you can't really tell if it's laughing or crying!! ... Woo...Hoo....
  17. Maurice

    Maurice Member


    Yes but you will perhaps want to share your fun so remember -
    never express an opinion that is different
    never correct any misinformation that is generated
    remember suction will be vital at all times.

    I'll take your suggestion and vomit instead. :grin:
  18. silverw

    silverw Member


    I would NEVER "express an opinion that is different" ... could get negative feedback!

    I would NEVER "correct any misinformation that is generated" .... makes for lots of useless postings!

    "remember suction will be vital at all times" ... ??? I don't know what that is supposed to mean.... ??

    "I'll take your suggestion and vomit instead." Which suggestion was that? ...
    Oh, ya... by the way, .... now I'm offened....
  19. Maurice

    Maurice Member

    You quite definitely weren't meant to be.
  20. silverw

    silverw Member

    I wasn,t ...really....

    just stirrin the pot!! :)

    Nitey nite... Maurice...

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