BSG Papermodel on ebay???

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by davitch, Jan 24, 2009.

  1. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    :confused: Sorry Marco, I don't understand why you think I'm confused. You seem to be repeating exactly what I said - here's my quote:
    The guy wasn't selling a model from Disney, he designed a model based on Disney's work and was distributing it for free. And Disney had a problem with that. Happily, they reached an agreement.

    For sure it's not forbidden to re-sell a model, that's "first use doctine". The more specific question is whether one can re-sell an assembled card model without the designer's permission.

    In the thread I linked to, a copyright lawyer said an assembled card model would qualify as a "derivative work" (which, under American copyright law, requires permission to re-sell). Whether or not an assembled card model is categorically a derivative work, I personally can't say. My original point was that a lawyer who specializes in this type of law said it is a derivative product (and thus requires permission)... so it would be a good idea to get permission to be on the safe side. After all, getting permission only takes an email. And that's another good reason for designers to put URLs or email addresses on models.

    However, you raise a great point - it is unlikely the original designer had permission from the owners of the Battlestar Galactica copyright! I'm sorrry I missed that, I'm not a big science fiction fan and didn't realize what "BSG" stood for. You are absolutely right, permission would be required to legally distribute a "BSG" model, even a free one. Typically, media corporations overlook so-called "fan art", for a number of reasons (for one, it's usually not worth their time to track down and prosecute). But as the well-intentioned fellow who designed the Disney model discovered, there is risk involved.

    It's hard to compare card models with plastic models because with plastic models you can only sell one assembled model for each one you purchase. That's why "first use" is much more clear-cut with plastic models.

    But with a (digital) card model, you can assemble as many as you want from one purchase (or one free download, whatever). In this way, the purchaser/downloader can actually produce more copies of the original product from a single purchase. That could be a problem, even with free downloads, as you could be infringing on the distribution rights of the designer (e.g. you could be depriving a designer of site traffic from which he benefits financially).

    It would depend on the copyright in question, and what it specifically allows. And that brings us back to the point I was trying to make: it's important for designers to put copyright statements on their sites and on their models so it is clear to the builder (and anyone else) what is possible without permission.

    Exactly - just as I said earlier in my reply to paulhbell.

    However, as I said, if you started selling copies of the movie posters without permission, or used them to produce some other commercial work (e.g. a book of movie posters) without permission, that could be copyright infringement. And those are the potential copyright issues involved with the issue of re-selling an assembled card model.
  2. you can sell a built up model, it is leagl i have checked with the PA state attn. and a state senator.... you may also give it away as a gift,, just as long as u do not change a patent or a trade mark. that goes for plastic card or wat ever... it it was not legal... for example if u build a model of a locomtive, or an aircraft and sold it,,, u would be denying say boeing... or union pacific of royalties???? if that is true then anyone that designed a model or sold it built or in kit form and did not ask the producer of the prototype for their blessing to release the model would be breaking the law
  3. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    The key difference is that, in the situation you described there is no problem because the model was only sold once, the original purchaser still has it. The purchaser paid the designer for the model, and paid the assembler for construction.

    According to the lawyer, in the case of someone purchasing or downloading a model, assembling it, and then re-selling it, the assembler is using the model to earn money from a third party - effectively, the assembler is getting paid for the construction and for the original design. The assembler is not simply earning money for his time, material and supplies - those would be worthless without the original design included. Copyright law does not permit someone to use another's work for commercial gain without permission. Of course, if the designer gives permission, there is no problem.

    Here is how the copyright lawyer put it in the other thread ("Bspline" is the lawyer):

    And once again, to make sure it's clear, there is no question about re-selling an unassembled kit ("first use doctrine"). As the copyright lawyer put it:
  4. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    If done without permission, there is legal risk involved...

    Lockheed Martin shuts down free 3D model of WWII aircraft

    Cessna Aircraft Corporation is now demanding royalties from model airplane kit manufacturers

    Rights Fees Kill Military Models Industry
    Opel sues German r/c car manufacturer over trademark use (Opel lost)

    Pentagon vs. Hobby Shops
    eBay seller claims Sikorsky shut down his sale of Revell Sikorsky model

    It is ILLEGAL to sell automotive models and art

    In the model railroading forums I read that something similar is happening in their industry, where some railroads are pressing model manufacturers for licensing fees for using their trademarks and logos.
  5. Stev0

    Stev0 Active Member

    This is capitalism at it's finest.

    This is how you win, don't buy it. If someone wants to buy then they can buy it. It's quite obvious that they want it (the person who purchased it). If they wanted something better they would not have purchased it. They are buying the finished result. No doubt they have asked questions about the item and are willing to pony up the $$$ for it.

    I'm getting the feeling that some are upset because they wish they could go on ebay and sell half-arsed models. If the world revolved on quality vs money life would be better but the world works on money, and money talks. Here we work on quality.
  6. Ronson2k3

    Ronson2k3 Member

    That's what I said back near the beginning.. As I wonder how something so big and fragile is going survive the shipping...??? Also I think Barnum Bailey said it best.. "There's one born every minute." In order to do it right he'll probably have to charge a mint to ship it..

    Ebay is the last place I look for stuff when i can't find something I want online so they didn't even try to find it elsewhere. I'm sure they would have found the models had they looked as I'm looking from time to time for models online. It's a pretty good place to find something that can't be found elsewhere. I'm usually looking for Railroad stuff 'I collect it'.

    One thing I've always wanted to ask you StevO. Is that a paper model of the 'Speedbuggy' you have? Used to be one of my favorite shows when I was a kid.. I had a big thing for dune buggies then LOL.
  7. Paladin

    Paladin Member

    I'm sure there is alot to decipher regarding legal rights to any design. One thing you did mention was "Copyright". Many designers here, and elsewhere have created aircraft, cars, spaceships etc...from looking at the real thing, or at least models in the movies. Anyway, whoever originally designed the aircraft, for instance, has copyright on it, not any designer of the paper model version, unless of course that paper model designer was the original designer of the real version, or movie prop. For instance, Lockheed has copyrights to the SR-71, and they can sue anyone here for making a paper copy of their aircraft. At the same time, no one here can raise a fuss about someone else selling an already built paper model of that SR-71 because it isn't your original work.

    So this guy selling a uhmmm uhmmm "Custom built" model is ok, (maybe not if your the buyer though). I'd have to say that if this guy considers himself a master of the technique having done this for many years, I must be a paper model god. I can tell you that I certainly am not though. What is shocking though is that the final bid on that ship was $76.00 :eek::eek::eek::cry:
  8. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    Someone earlier pointed out that he hadn't even done edge coloring! :eek:

    Looks like an opportunity here for skilled modelers ... do a little research into what kinds of finished models attract the highest prices (sailing ships? just guessing), get permission from the designer (probably most wouldn't care if you just bothered to ask), and ... start subsidizing your favorite hobby!
  9. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    Personally, I don't think America's #1 enemy is "terrorism" ... it's corporatism.

    About a year ago a guy named Sam Adams ran for mayor of Portland, OR. He received a "cease and desist" letter from the lawyers of the company that produces Sam Adams beer, claiming the politician's web site was infringing on their trademark of the name "Sam Adams". :rolleyes:

    Amen to both observations!

    StevO, I'm glad to see you here, because I've been meaning to ask you something.

    A while back someone described the license they sell their models under ... instead of focusing on copyright, it was more a license for production. This seemed to me like a very sensible and interesting approach, since in card modeling - unlike most other forms of IP - the customers really are producing the product.

    Was that you, StevO?
  10. Stev0

    Stev0 Active Member

    Yep... I had to have it pulled as it was distributed in a zip file through my copy of Winrar from way back. Apparently it's not Kosher to download and use the new one past 40 days. So instead of being a 'pirate' I pulled the few models I designed.
  11. Stev0

    Stev0 Active Member

    Sounds familiar but I would have to have some Alberta Springs Rye into me to get the memory back.
  12. Gearz

    Gearz Member


    Disregarding the letter of the law ( imagined or real copyrights) I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone making a few bucks from a built model that I've designed, although it would have been nice if he had of gone about it a little differently.....

    Certainly food for thought considering those auction results.:eek:

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