BSG Papermodel on ebay???

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by davitch, Jan 24, 2009.

  1. davitch

    davitch Member

  2. wccrawford

    wccrawford Novice Papercrafter

    First of all, any 2 models of the BSG are going to look a lot alike since they're modelled on the same thing.

    And second, he's not copying and selling the kit, he's selling the finished model. And even if he -were- selling the kit, as long as he didn't make a copy, that's legal, too!
  3. paulhbell

    paulhbell Guest

    While I agree that other Galactica models will look the same, looking at the photo's the seller is posting, the details on the model look very simular to gearz's Galactica. He don't say that he designed the model, only that he built it and it took him a long time to master type of building.

    He should have really said in the posting that it was designed by gearz.

    But you are right about the seller not selling the plans, they are selling the model. Which, as you posted is legal. Think I'll watch the auction to see how much he gets for it.
  4. paulhbell

    paulhbell Guest

    Ok, I take back some of the comments from my last post.

    I've just looked at some of the other items this seller has for sale and he's offering jays new galactica as well. Again no plans, just the model.

    I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I don't think it's right to profit from gearz's or jays work, but I don't think he's actually breaking any laws by selling the model's. So it's sitting on the fence for me.
  5. paulhbell

    paulhbell Guest

    I've sent the seller this message

    I am a member on a various card model forums, and we are fighting against copyright violations. While you are not actually selling the plans for this model, which is fine and legal, your listing should give credit to the correct designer of the model. This should also be added to the other 'card' models you are selling.

    Not much, just doing my little bit to help.
  6. davitch

    davitch Member

    I believe that the guy should not allude to the model being scratchbuilt. I don't think following a pattern set out in a "free download" should be considered built from scratch. He had a plan, he had assembly instructions, it is like building a plastic model from a box. If he had taken the time to "scratchbuild" it, it would not be a problem.

    The guy has the right to sell his "work" just not to claim he did it all, IMHO.
  7. sneaker

    sneaker Member

    I think his description is vague and a bit misleading. He should state that he did not design these models, and that they are freely available. Not sure about the selling of built kits though. :confused: Also, and I will probably receive some flak for this, but for someone who has spent many years mastering his technique his build ups do not seem to reflect this. They are good, but not for the money he is going to fetch for these.

    (n810) "
    I wish you could post comments on ebay pages. I'd first mention how the guy completly failed to do any edge coloring on the galacticas and then links to the places where people could download the kits for free. I mean seriously... $50 for the Buck Rogers Thunderfighter? $40 for Jay's Galactica? $50 for Gearz? Ifyou are going to sell these free kits at least put some custom detailing on, or for gods sake color the frakking edges!"

    Aww you beat me to it!!!! :mrgreen:
  8. Millenniumfalsehood

    Millenniumfalsehood Active Member

    In any case, I wish he wouldn't claim he "mastered this technique", as anyone with a Mk 1 Eyeball can tell he failed to allign several edges(the most prominent are the seams on the gator head, the back end of the engines, and the caps of the landing bays). I can build better than that, and I still hesitate the call myself a 'master' of card-modeling.

    The thing is, the way it reads implies he designed the model, since the techniques used by draftsmen are actually cutting the parts out of stock material(like brick and shingle patterns) to make mock-ups of their ideas, and even though he did build this model out of templates with the patterns on them, it feels like he's deliberately trying to say that he designed as well as built this model(the usage of the phrases "A CUSTOM BUILT BATTLESTAR GALACTICA" and "THIS IS NOT A KIT" here suggests he's trying to say he scratch-built this, as does his use of the phrase "THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS ITEM IS THE SAME METHOD USED IN DRAFTING\ ENGINEERING OF C.A.D. MINIATURE STRUCTURES")

    Even though he can legally defend the claims he makes, it seems to me that he's trying to jack up the price and use the implications he makes in the description as a way of backing up his claims.

    And of course he may be innocent of all that, but I doubt it(mainly because I have tried before to justify jacking up the prices of stuff I've sold of eBay by carefully choosing my words, though I have found better, less 'evil' ways of doing that, like selling *quality* work. It's not hard to make it sound like you put a lot of work into something in order to justify a price like that).
  9. Stev0

    Stev0 Active Member

    oi vey!
  10. davitch

    davitch Member

    I don't think you will catch flak from anyone here about your statement since it seems that alot of the people here are in agreement. Hell the only reason I took a second look at the model in the first place was because of the lines I saw!

  11. davitch

    davitch Member

    I did not mean to stir up a hornet's nest here, but with one of my other hobbies, miniature war gaming, I tend to keep an eye out for fakes and frauds. Not saying that this guy is one, but just buyer should be aware!
  12. paulhbell

    paulhbell Guest

    This is the reply I got from from the seller of these models.

    "Hi, I most "fully" understand where your coming from... I have sold alot of my own buildings and vehicle designs on the auction and have made alot of custom changes to the paper models i have not designed. I`m bad about using the same main description on every model on the auction. I will be more "careful" on the descriptions in the future. I know how hard it can be to design a card model from scratch & see someone else get the credit.
    Thanks for being so understanding"

    At least he replied and wasn't nasty.
  13. Art Decko

    Art Decko Member

    Actually, I believe you are wrong about that.

    According to US copyright law, it is not legal to sell an assembled version of someone else's model without their permission - even a free model. That's known as a "derivative work" - a product derived from someone else's work - and the original copyright holder retains rights over derivative works.

    This was hashed out in a recent thread in which a copyright lawyer participated.

    Is it legal to sell assembled versions of free downloaded models?
  14. paulhbell

    paulhbell Guest

    So basically, you are saying that all models that are built can't be sold, who ever designed/packaged them.

    If thats correct, what about every assembled model that is sold by the plastic makers (tamiya) and built by joe public, same applies to the radio controlled models (boats, cars, planes) that are sold on online auctions and at model shows around the world.

    What about when the studios (warner brothers etc) have a clear out and they sell all the old/unwanted models at auction.

    Same as at conventions, plastic/paper models are sold there as well, some already built.

    I think this is a sticky area and it will need sorting out in a court sometime in the future.

    I'm not saying what the seller is doing is right, I don't agree with it. And I would rather give my built models away to people who I know, rather than sell them.
  15. wccrawford

    wccrawford Novice Papercrafter

    No, that's not a derivative work... And I don't think that applies anyhow.

    If I buy a model kit, and then resell it, that's perfectly legal, even if I make more money from it. If I buy a model kit, assemble it, and then resell it, there's no difference except for my time involved.

    I'm not a lawyer, and I don't care what a lawyer told you in a forum (especially since he isn't legally representing you). This is not illegal.
  16. davitch

    davitch Member

    Besides the fact that the kit is free, he can claim he is only selling his time and effort. He can put a cost of materials and labor and say that is what he is selling.

    What I don't like is that he is selling it "THIS IS NOT A KIT" when it obviously is. Basically all of his auctions imply that he made that mesh, skinned it, unfolded it in pep, and built it. He actually only built, all the research was done by some other persons. This is where I think that it gets really sticky in the fact that he isn't giving appropriate credit to the right people.

    By the by, plastic models have a license to be sold by said manufacturers, usually to the designer(s). People who have built those models have a right to sell their kits since it is their property and can do with as they see fit.
  17. wccrawford

    wccrawford Novice Papercrafter

    I think "THIS IS NOT A KIT" is just to make sure people know it's already assembled. It's probably not the best way to say it, but he -is- human.
  18. Padre

    Padre Guest

    I do not intend to sell my built models but..............

    If in the event of a financial disaster, death or something I would sell them or my heirs would sell them. It would be the same as a work of art (statue, painting, etc). If I did sell them on Ebay I would give credit to who made it and where they could get it, I would just be selling the completed model.

    I, Personally, see nothing wrong with selling the completed model as long as credit is givin to the designer.

    I gave a friend a model from Canon, had the Canon logo on it) to put up in her coffee shop. It was one of those good luck cats. Someone offered her $25 for it and she sold it. Or we now criminals? Don't think so. Made her another one and told her not to sell it as I would not make another one for her.
  19. Paragon

    Paragon Active Member

    I have to admit, this has me considering selling some completed models now. With the new Star Trek movie coming up, I can imagine getting a decent price for my Kelvin and Enterprise models...

    The difference in this case is that I did design them.

    Anyway, I'm tempted to say this guy looks like his wife told him its time to get rid of some of his models, and now he's just trying to get some compensation; otherwise I wouldn't expect him to be selling four models at once. They may not be incredible builds (with the exception of the Eagle...which looks quite impressive), but they all obviously took awhile to make.

    I don't really see a lot of harm in it though, since he's not selling the unbuilt kit, so its not piracy. He's just selling the services of his construction.

    I'll be interested to see how much they all go for.
  20. sneaker

    sneaker Member

    I agree with this for the most part, It seems that there still is a debate as to the legalities, even after a thread discussing this very situation with a copyright lawyer. I would think ultimately it is what the designers of the kits want, and what it says in their agreements for download.

    If I designed I would be inclined to try this. What it comes down to for me, is, if he is going to sell these models and this may or may not be legal. Just give credit where credit is due. And include in the information that the patterns are freely available to anyone who wants to try their hand at this craft. Don't make it sound like you built these up from scratch.

    I think I might try an experiment with this. I am going to contact a designer and get approval to sell a built up model of their design on Ebay. I will fully disclose that the model is available for download and give credit where credit is due. I will donate the proceeds to whatever charity/organization the designer wishes. of course this is all dependent on whether or not I can build something that is worth buying. A huge factor for me, as my skills are....hmm shall we say not consistant. :cool:

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