Another layout challenge

[iis612]

I have a 12'x12' room with an 8'x4' (seperated by a sheet rock and stud wall) area in an adjoining room for a loop section and staging. The room has no features that will interfere with these dimentions, even the door opens out.
Without becoming too heavy in the nomenclature, here is what I would like to see in this challenge:
Era: late 1940's
P2P ops
Double main from origin to terminus
2 yards
Origin yard should have a turntable with 4 stall roundhouse.
Terminus yard should have a 3 bay car shop.
Both yards need ashpits, coal and water.
swing bridge over the Mississippi river (which by the prototype is roughly 30 miles before the terminus)
terminus yard should lead into the hidden staging area
Industries to include grain elevator, livestock, iron ore transfer (via canal barges), light manufacturing, petroleum, lumber and passenger service (which the prototype supported left hand passenger ops).
There is also a 60 degree double/double crossing with a small interchange yard in the middle.

I would like to avoid lift outs, but do not mind duck under entry/exit. It can be multi leveled as long as the helix is 1 turn with a light grade, and it does not block a duck under entry/exit point.
The largest locomotives that need to run reliably are f units.
As the prototype is based on the CNW line between Proviso yard in Chicago, IL to Clinton, IA there is no tremendous concern over grade.
I don't know that I will use the layout design when I get to building, but I might take elements or the whole thing.
I know that there is a huge wealth of talent on this board, and I am hoping to tap into it to get me over my creative block.

 

[bigsteel]

could you give a diagram of the room to get a better idea of the usable space?cause i might take a crack at this one.

 

[iis612]

I will do my best to describe the room as I don't have a paint program and my scanner needs an updated driver.
The room is a perfect 12'x12' square with nothing encumbering any part of the space.
If you walk into the room, the door swings to the outside, you will be standing appx. 1.5' from the wall where the hidden staging area should be located. You would be looking at a concrete basement wall. Turning right the room is open, and the far wall is concrete as well. The remaining walls are stud and sheet rock interior walls. Electricity is available from every wall and overhead. The outlets on the exterior walls are not recessed, but are attached to the wall appx 2' from the floor and will pose no problems.
Edit: The hidden area can be as large as 6'x12'

Power is available from 3 of the 4 walls.

 

[CNWman]

Just adding something in (being the CNWman that I am), Remember that the CNW ran opisite of what most other American railways did. I'm jelous that you have all that space! My basement has room, but we have a rodent problem and there isn't a space for module construction and I have only little more than $100 (which I plan on spending an a loco)

 

[bigsteel]

ok i know im a little DEE DE DEE but it goes like this the 12 by 12 is perfect and there is an adjoining room where you want a reaturn loop and a staging yard correct?

 

[iis612]

Just adding something in (being the CNWman that I am), Remember that the CNW ran opisite of what most other American railways did. I'm jelous that you have all that space! My basement has room, but we have a rodent problem and there isn't a space for module construction and I have only little more than $100 (which I plan on spending an a loco)

Right you are, hence the addition of the left handed operation.
Don't be jealous of the space, it is going to be alot of work for me to make that space. The room exists, but it is full of junk and will need to be cleaned out, some cabinets removed, and 2 benches torn out.
I think I would like to pay someone else to clean it out, but I don't have much money either.

 

[iis612]

ok i know im a little DEE DE DEE but it goes like this the 12 by 12 is perfect and there is an adjoining room where you want a reaturn loop and a staging yard correct?

You got it!
Let me try to use compas directions in describing the room.
The entry/exit is along the east wall. The West and North walls are concrete exterior basement walls, and the loop/staging area is through the south wall.
The entry is about 1.5' off of the south/east corner.

 

[bigsteel]

ok ill see if i can get a basic plan done by tomorrow night.i think a g shaped around the room layout would work best,with p to p and a staging yard.

 

[bigsteel]

one more thing minimum radii?and what switches do you want 4,6,or even number 8.ill make a generic plan and add whatever you want.

 

[bigsteel]

alright one loast thing for today.its an around the room benchplan with 2ft deep shelves except where the door is and its 18in.the aisles are 3 ft but if you like i could make the shelves a little bigger and the aisles close too 2.5 feet.and is the 4by8 in the right spot or not?anyway see if you like it and tell me if you want any changes.---josh

sorry got your name wrong on the plan-LOL

 

[CNWman]

Right you are, hence the addition of the left handed operation.
Don't be jealous of the space, it is going to be alot of work for me to make that space. The room exists, but it is full of junk and will need to be cleaned out, some cabinets removed, and 2 benches torn out.
I think I would like to pay someone else to clean it out, but I don't have much money either.

I'd kill for a room which i'd have to clean out for modelrailroading space (figurativley speaking of course, I'm not seriously going to kill anyone!). All I got is a 4X8 table.

 

[iis612]

Bigsteel,

I like the G layout, and the staging is in the right spot.
I can do the 2.5' walkways.
Minimum radii should be 22-24"
turnouts 4's or 6's in the yards, 6's at sidings and into industrial spurs.
The operation of the layout will be nearly prototypical in that switch engines will work the yards, and spot consists on outbound tracks off of the mains so the majority of the turnouts in the yards can be 4's, with the exception of the outbound and inbound tracks being 6's. I don't think that will interfere with F units too much.

Did I mention that you are rocking so far! :thumb:

 

[iis612]

Bigsteel, I forgot one thing. That 4x8 can be 6x12. I can free up some more space for it.
If you wanted to, you could go with the G peninsula and make the shelf circle the entire room, if you think the real estate is needed. I can duck under it.

 

[bigsteel]

i dont think youll need it around the entire room iis612,if its just going to be point to point you wont need it.if i put the duckunder in it though you could have p to p and continuous running.and how many trains do you want to run at one time? and what length?this answer also depicts the size of the staging yard youll need.and also ,what is your preference for yards?do you want stub ended or double ended?with stub you can hold alot more cars, with double it allows the switch engine to get in and out of the yard easier.--josh

EDIT--also i dont think we can do a 6 by 12 staging unless there is an opening behind it to reach everything,if you dont youll literally climb on the table to reach the back.

 

[iis612]

i dont think youll need it around the entire room iis612,if its just going to be point to point you wont need it.if i put the duckunder in it though you could have p to p and continuous running.and how many trains do you want to run at one time? and what length?this answer also depicts the size of the staging yard youll need.and also ,what is your preference for yards?do you want stub ended or double ended?with stub you can hold alot more cars, with double it allows the switch engine to get in and out of the yard easier.--josh

EDIT--also i dont think we can do a 6 by 12 staging unless there is an opening behind it to reach everything,if you dont youll literally climb on the table to reach the back.

Josh,
Operations are going to include 2 streamline "400" passenger trains, 1 local industrial switcher, 2 mixed freight consists, and 1 push/pull commuter and 2 yard switchers.
The longest consists will be the 400's with between 8 and 10 long cars and multi F unit ABBA power. They will eat up some real estate. The freight consists will vary in length from between 15-25 varying cars.
Proviso Yard (origin) should be stub ended but the main lines need to continue through to the east, and Clinton (terminus) should be double ended.
You are right about the staging area size, I hadn't even thought about that.
The issue with the duck under is at your discretion, like I said, if the real estate is needed.
You Rock!balloon6
Matt

 

[ocalicreek]

My first thoughts...

Your operating schematic sounds like a good opportunity to use a yard arrangement like Bob Smaus' most recent layout...part of the yard is visible, and part is staging.

OR, design the staging as a section between the end points...where trains lay over to add 'miles' to the run time. An eastbound heads into staging then lays over while you run a westbound out, then later take up the eastbound again and continue the trip so it will be 'out of sight, out of mind' for a while.

My pencil and paper are down for now, (except to put up my own tiny 4x6 sketches), but I'm intrigued to see how others approach this scenario.

 

[bigsteel]

wooh! this is a little harder than i thought! LOL.ive been worken for a while and hardly got anything done!well back to the drawin board.

 

[Triplex]

22"-24" radius will be tight for streamline passenger cars.

 

[iis612]

22"-24" radius will be tight for streamline passenger cars.

Your right, I hadn't thought about it really. I think they can make the curve, but it won't look good. When I first started coming up with my ideas (which I have a track plan on paper but no scanner [upgraded to Windows Vista] so I can't share it.) I had not intended to run the passenger trains at all, but I knew that the prototype was one of the busiest lines in the country. It would seem thin without the passenger service.

Josh,
If you have the real estate to work with, you might want to increase the radii on the main lines to 30+
Matt

 

[bigsteel]

Josh,
If you have the real estate to work with, you might want to increase the radii on the main lines to 30+
Matt

no problem it may be a squeeze but im pretty sure it will work.ive got some ideas im on now so i might have one in a little bit ,if not ill have it tomorrow night.--josh