Adirondack sawmill questions

Discussion in 'Logging, Mining and Industrial Railroads' started by Muddy Creek, Aug 18, 2004.

  1. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    The South NY RR did send a Climax to the museum; their site just seems to show the wrong one having been sent.

    In the Gove book, the Grasse River roster shows their Climax #44 sold in 1944 to Dexter Sulphite Pulp & Paper Co, then sold to South NY RR & scrapped in 1956. It also lists the build date as 1909 and the purchase date of 1927. The museum Climax is said to have been built in 1928.

    The site, lists the museum loco as having been Barclay Chemical Co. # 1, later owned by SNYRR and then the museum. It lists the build date as 1927, (serial #1683.) It also confirms The Grasse River #44 (listed as Serial # 948) was built in 1909 & scrapped by SNYRR in 1956.

  2. silver

    silver Member

    Thanks guy's glad you figured that out. Still, while I had my doubts and didn't think it was true, it would have been an interesting "what if".

    The #12 Rail car is still at Strasburg. Now lettered as the Lancaster, Oxford and Southern #10 that it was in the days before GRR. It is apparently run in the fall and spring off seasons. Now that it is December they are running X-mas Steam trains. So apparently this Interurban wins the GRR equiptment longevity award.

    Does anyone now the preservation status of the #71 caboose up in Vermont. Someday I hope to visit.
  3. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    Apparently the owner of #71 has a small collection of railroad cars. I looked at the terraserver site to see if I could spot it in a photo. The lastest aerial photo of the area is from 1999 and I'm not sure if what I think is a short string of cars really isn't a line of chicken coops. (Can't zoom in close enough.)

    By the way, congratulations on the birth of your son.

  4. silver

    silver Member

    Thank you Wanye.
    My babies name is Oscar after my grandfather and the baby is a lot of fun.

    According to one site I found, this Vermont Doctor has at least one steam engine as well.

    I read an old post you wrote in another forum on freelance railroad news releases, funny stuff.
  5. silver

    silver Member

    Color Grasse River RR railbus pics

    A few things have popped up today for some reason. First I found alot of info on Grasse River self propelled vehicles. Also there is an emphasis on #12. According to info I've found there were two #12's. One was a combine and one was a self propelled interurban. The interurban is still around and I have links to pics. of both.

    These pictures come from George Elwood's website it is a nice website and they are his pictures. He cares alot about telling people this, so there I did.

    There are some pictures of some equipment at Railcity Museum in the mid 1960's. First the #12 combine
    Next the white truck railbus aka jumping goose #11
    Finally on a happy note a picture of the big survivor the other #12 the interurban in it's new(er) home the Strasburg RR. In it's original paint scheme of the L.O.& S. the the Grasse River bought it from.

    Finally a new and more obsure research on the mysterious Evans rail bus or Evans Auto-Railer as it was technically called and the ties to Arlington & Fairfax as well as Washington and Old Dominion RR. According to this the Auto-Railer would have probably arrived after 1939. Heres a link the explains more and this also a little down the page under passenger information. . Something that this doesn't say is that the owner of Evans was using the W.&O.D. as a demonstration RR for the Auto-Railer. They were hopping to make more. eventually they just sold the ones they made for the A.&F. and not even all of those. The W.&O.D. had at least two of them til the end of operations. I was particularly happy to find this out because my hometown where I was born and grew up is Alexandria VA southeastern terminus of the W.&O.D. Most of it was dismantled by my time but I remember some bridge abutments and a short bit of track coming from the Potomac Yard to the power plant that was part of it. Most of the right of way is now a bike path. My first serious model railroad circa 1990 was of it with a pair of HO scale Bachmann Spectrum GE 70 ton engines on a 4x8 table.

    The owner/ curator of the Rail City Museum also contacted me today though this page. He say he is upgradeing his website and is working on a full length book on the former Rail City collection and it's disposition. I wish him luck and it sounds like an interesting project. I look forward to the final results.

    The Adirondack (Tourist) RR is upgrading the former NYC line that connects Sarinak Lake to Tupper Lake. They broke ground on a replica station at Tupper Lake JT on the original site and even ran a special train there in the Fall. and another at .This line goes right by the site of Childwolds Station the GRR/NYC interchange. I am trying to get my inlaws house/former Cranberry Lake Emporium office and station added to the list of surviving New York RR stations. All this and the Bill Gove talk in Mass. in the spring.

    Exciting times for someone interested in the Grasse River RR and Emporium Lumber Co.
  6. silver

    silver Member

    Today the owner of the Railtown Museum wrote me and told me the fate of the White Rail bus. It was burned in place while the Museum was being run by another man in the late 60's . He says there are pictures of it burning owned by Robert Palmer, one of the authors of "Rails in the North Woods".They apparently stay in touch. He says he gets the most inquiries about that railbus than of the rest of the whole collection.
  7. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member


    I wasn't aware of two #12s. I've only seen a photo of a combine-style one, though the photo in my book looks a bit different than the one in your links. It's nice to see photos of the second #12 motor car and to know it's still running. I think it might be a nice scratch-build project in N Scale. The Nov/Dec issue of Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette has plans and drawings of an LO&S motor car (hopefully the second #12, the LO&S #10.) I'm trying to track down a copy.

    I'll be doing some volunteer work on the Adirondack Scenic Railroad at the North end and hope to be traveling the line by train at some point soon.

  8. silver

    silver Member

    Thanks, I will keep my eyes peeled for that one.

    Here in SandyEgo there is a hobby shop that almost exclusively carries magazines. Its an old one est. 1940's. There was even a Sundam model of it "The Original Whistle Stop". In the model there is a donut shop next door, now that is a stationary shop.

    I am sure they carry that magazine. If you cant find one, I could pick an extra one up.

    Both the # 12's seem like they were combine style but only the moterized one survived. I have not seen the movie "Polar Express" (a baby = no time) but the pics I seen look like the back of the observation car is round and looks alot like the front of the #12 interrurban. Funny coincidence I'm sure.
  9. silver

    silver Member

    I could not find those plans in that magazine issue.
  10. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member


    Thanks for checking. I saw an article about a Lancaster Oxford & Southern motor car in an index for that issue. I guess they were wrong or it was a different motor car.

    Anyway, Happy New Years. Hope to enjoy some more research into the Grasse River RR during the coming year.

  11. silver

    silver Member

    Many Mixed Questions for a Mixed Train

    Here are alot of questions I am working on these days. I have enough close models to make a pretty good representation of a Mixed train from Childwold station to Cranberry Lake in the mid 1920's in "O" scale. So most of my questions are in this area.

    Does anyone out there know the color schemes of GRR/Emporium equipment. I believe the log buggys were painted brown or left natural wood. Do you know if these were numbered? In what series?

    Was there a uniform passenger car paint scheme? Was it the same as that of the Gas electric? The one color photo I have seen of the #12 combine was very weathered natural wood but that was taken years after the end of operation. Were the passenger cars lettered for Grasse River or Emporium. It seems that the Passenger operation was designated as the Grasse River line and Emporium was left for the lumber working equipment. Was this philosophy extended to the lettering of Locos with Rod locos lettered GRR and geared locos lettered Emporium?

    I am trying to make a model of the unpowered combine #12 in O scale and found it is a close match to the combine offered by Bachmann in it's Spectrum On3 line. Naturally I need to put new standard gauge trucks on it. If I decide to make a true model of it it needs to be lengthened as well. The model has 12 clerstory windows and the prototype 15. In the passenger area three windows need to be added and one more passenger type window in the baggage area. But the baggage door panels even have the correct number of window paines. Two models would work well to splice together these alterations. The altered model would be a very close match to the photos as seen at the Sandy River RR museum posted earlier.

    Finally, last one were there off line (by this I mean NYC, etc.) cars ferried over the line to Cranberry Lake. If so any ideas on types, Reefers for the store, Private vacation cars, Flats and boxes to pick up finished wood or was this all transfered at Childwold? I now I am cheating and getting one more in but it is related. Did the GRR/Emporium car fleet stay strictly on property or did they travel as well? They seem a bit primitive, even for the time to go too far.
  12. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    I believe that, except for the various motorized cars & bus the GRR used, the entire passenger roster consisted of the number 12 combine.

    The article in the Narrow Gauge Gazzette says the motorized #12 from the LO&S was painted "light green" during its years on the Grasse River. (Originally Tuscan Red and now red again.) Good luck figuring out what "light green" is.

    I haven't seen any photos that showed lettering on the combine, but the #12 motor car was lettered for the Grasse River.

  13. silver

    silver Member

    There is a small mention and photo of the LO&S #10 as restored by the folks in Strasburg in this months issue of Railroad Model Craftsman (March 2005). The article is titled as stated on thier site is

    * 60 RMC/Dremel Kitbashing Award: Kitbashing a gas-electric by Kurt Mirisch
    Turning a Bachmann HO scale Brill trolley into a model of a Strang gas-electric motor car has earned Kurt Mirisch this month's award.

    The article is of a freelanced model that looks more like another car from the Dan Patch RR. There is not too much mentioned on the ex GRR car but it is recognized as the last regularly running gas electric car.

    Not too much, a small B&W pic but might be of interest.
  14. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    I'll have to check out the issue. I'm still planning to build a similar car in N scale. I'll have to see if I can find a suitable chassis. I hope to lasercut the body from the drawings from the Narrow Gauge Gazette. I have to find an earlier issue, Jan 1977, that has a set of dimensioned drawings. Or go to Strasburg and measure it.

  15. Livesteam

    Livesteam Member

    this has probally been said before but where is the adirondack logging? also can people come and watch?
  16. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    Well, there are still logging operations here in the mountains, but they're pretty much small scale operations on private land. The heyday of logging here was over more than a half century ago.

    Some big paper companies like Domtar from Canada still have forest holdings here but most logging is on small acreage. The logging trucks roll by here from up the hill in my town about once or twice a day lately.

    As interested as I am in logging history here in the Park, I hate seeing the aftermath of the operations so I'm happy to not watch. Fortunately, it's small scale with relatively little visual or environmental impact.

  17. Livesteam

    Livesteam Member

    What do you mean by after math? you mean by seeing the trees gone?
  18. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    Well, yeah, that's the aftermath of logging in these parts. Stumpy clearings.

  19. Livesteam

    Livesteam Member

    Yeah,true, do you have a model of the logging?
  20. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

    Right now I'm working on the sawmill section and next will be a line up to logging camps.

    The early 1900's, in which my layout is purportedly set, would have seen much of the area cut for timber, clearcut by charcoal burners supplying the furnaces or burned by massive fires often started by locomotives or other human activiity. Photos of the devastation are painful to look at. The abuse of the forests is what led to the creation of the 6 million acre Adirondack Park at the end of the 1800's. Fortunately the climate & soil here allowed the forests to regenerate relatively fast. Some areas I've seen in the Rockies where clear-cutting occured in high altitudes likely won't start to regrow for ages.

    It would be a lot easier to model the wastelands than to make thousands of trees for the layout but that degree of realism doesn't appeal to me. So the logging trains will snake through heavily forested areas to small clearings where I will model the camps & log loadings. The heavy tree cutting will be done "off-layout."

    As Twain said, "People who love sausage and respect the law should never watch either one being made."

    Added: On the plus side, somehow during the cutting and burning frenzy of the past, a 10 acre area of the forest near here managed to remain untouched and there still stands around 25 or so old-growth white pines over 300 years old and reaching up to 170 feet. One may be the national champion Eastern White Pine. The "Elder's Grove" is one of my favorite places on the planet and I'm lucky to be so close to it. But it's estimated these trees are at the upper limits of their lifespan and are dying off at the rate of one a year. In a quarter century or so these giants will be gone.

    (For those keeping score at home, these trees would be over a foot tall on my N Scale layout. You G Scalers might have to raise your ceilings.)


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