A very sad day

Discussion in 'Getting Started' started by scudrunr, Sep 11, 2001.

  1. Bill Stone

    Bill Stone Member



    I wish all Americans --- for that matter, all citizens of the world --- could see that web site.

  2. michael l

    michael l Member


    i am questioning our resolve as a nation. i do not think we have the same resolve as the world war II generation. i am questioning our resolve 18 months from now when we have witnessed US and coalition casualty numbers rise. i am questioning our media. i am questioning the "makeup" of the american public. i am questioning why an "American" proceeded to steal an american flag from its station on the front of my house last night.

    is this the real America? is this the America that will show is lack of commitment and resolve? i pray not.

    time will tell i guess, but i hope i am utterly wrong.

  3. roryglasgow

    roryglasgow Active Member

    State of the Nation


    I might be stepping out on a limb with this...but I have to say, "No," this is not the same America as it was in WWII. This country has faltered over the past several decades in establishing its moral foundation. We are now a nation of godlessness, moral relativism, and selfishness. Mix those factors together, and our decision-making process becomes tedious, and our decisions become cloudy (because we have no common base from which to make our decisions). Right now the nation is going through the aftershock of the attack--we are feeling extremely defensive--and that is why we appear to be moving as a single unit. As time passes, however, people will settle down to their old philosophies and lines of thinking (except for those how have been shocked into a different mindset), and we will see our resolve begin to crumble.

    It doesn't necessarily have to be this way, though. If our relatiation is swift and successful, this may go very well. Take the Gulf War, for example. It was quick and well propagandized, and we claimed victory shortly after starting the attack (we DID accomplish our primary goal of liberating Kuwait).

    I'm interested in seeing how the media and liberal intelligencia will make us out to be the bad guys in the end.

    Don't give up hope, though! Keep arguing for Truth and Justice. We all have to do our part!

    -Rory (who is going to get off this limb and eat lunch)
  4. kf4jqd

    kf4jqd Active Member

    Rory and others:

    One thing you have forgot to mention is patroitism. Our country hasn't bond together since the Bombing of Pearl Harbor. My Grandparents talked about how this country united then. I have read it in history books. Now I am seening it on every street corner. God and America should be in every part of American lives. Remember there is still the Bill of Rights. To practice any or no religion at all. This is one of the things that upsets these people.(According to Fox News).

    Our friends in other countries should know this is also an attack on their freedoms too. There has been alot of quotes being told by Winston Churchhill and FDR.

    As for modelling railroading. The flags are flying half mast on the layout. Just like in our yard and yards across America.

    God Bless,
  5. Bill Stone

    Bill Stone Member

    to Michael l --- and everyone,
    It's easy to remember only the best of WWII. But remember also that there were draft dodgers, war profiteers, slackers, and any number of different types even then. As infuriating as it must be, because some ignorant jerk stole your flag does not mean the whole nation is lacking.
    I'm pretty old --- I remember WWII, and was in the Korean War --- and I have my doubts about a lot of what I see (and hear) around me. But just as after Pearl Harbor --- when a disrupted, largely isolationist, politically confused nation of people (many even pro-Nazi) suddenly became a massive war machine the likes of which the world had never seen --- now our nation, and hopefully the whole free world, may come together in a coordinated effort that might (just might) leave us in far better social condition than we were.
    One more thought about now vs WWII: We now have intelligent, thinking, responsible members of the media AND our government trying to prevent stupid reactions against innocent American Muslims. During WWII, when Eleanor Roosevelt suggested in a speech that Americans should be nice to their Japanese-American neighbors, the Los Angeles Times was outraged and called for her ouster from any governmental function. You see? Everything wasn't better then.....
    Let's demand the best from our government, and from our people.
  6. roryglasgow

    roryglasgow Active Member


    Well, hopefully patriotism will play a bigger role this time around. It certainly didn't stir people enough during the first WTC bombing...or the attacks on our military forces in Yemen...or the ones in Somalia...and Saudi Arabia...oh yeah, and the U.S.S. Cole.

    I think it has less to do with patriotism than with our national leadership and our national resolve. But these last two attacks were on our home soil, and were considerably more destructive than the previous attempt (on the WTC). Maybe that's what was needed to overtake our defensive lethargy and cowtowing to our enemies who've sworn to destroy us.

  7. Woodie

    Woodie Active Member


    In my experience, US culture, society and politics has the best and worst of everything. I am yet to hear any of the US media ask WHY this tragedy has happened, and ask what the US has done to deserve this.

    The US is not beyond reproach in this, both internally and externally which, by saying so, may be an afront to US patriotism. People suffer and benefit from different cultural, societial and political regimes. Some regimes produce more suffering/benefit than others. The lack of decent social support structures while there is flagrant displays of excessive wealth will produce people that are disenfranchised with the system. The cultural concept of the "American Dream", if not achieved (or provided by someone else) will produce people that are disenfranchised with the system. (Oklahoma City and Columbine are some examples of the results). My own personal severe mugging in San Francisco (robbery was the motive) which left me unconscious, and hospitalised with a fractured foot, 10 facial fractures and severe head gashes is another example of the results. A society where crack cocaine is a five minute cab ride away.

    Internal US politics survives on and craves the need for a common enemy. There is nothing like the provision of an "enemy" (perceived or real) to polarise the vote in your favour, and cloud/lessen the more important volatile internal political issues that can lose elections. (Australia is also not immune to this philosophy). Recent events will further polarise the US vote now, by the provision of this additional enemy, to the benefit of the political incumbent.

    To me, US foreign policy is selective at the best of times, and is certainly not innocent in it's support of political regimes that engage in terror and genocide. The recent terror campaigns in Aceh and genocide in East Timor by the Indonesian military come to mind. (10’s of thousands killed) Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world (210 million people). There is more US military stationed in Indonesia, than the entire Australian armed forces. All this by a government supported militarily and politically by the US and by a government that provides the US with the facilities for strategic, financial and commercial influence in the region, in return for assistance and support with political dominance (and the turn of a blind eye). A government whose recently deposed president sought refuge in the United States under the guise of “medical treatment” immediately upon being deposed. A president who was responsible for that country’s military activities. The genocide in East Timor occurred because the peoples of East Timor did not support the Indonesian Government. I doubt whether many Americans even know where Aceh or East Timor is.

    Others that come to mind are US support of the Sandinista in Nicaragua, intervention in Grenada, and remember, the US support of the Taliban during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the first place, only to leave behind political regimes that were as bad as the ones deposed, with the only difference now being Nicaragua’s support of the US government (militarily and economically) and in the case of Afgahnistan and Grenada, to kick the commie can.. Even the CIA has been implicated (though not proven) in the downfall of the Australian left wing government in 1975, because it was the government’s policy to require Australian access and knowledge of activities of Australian based US military facilities that are strategic to the US influence in the Asian region.

    The ability to have an opinion, state that opinion, and vote accordingly without fear of retribution, or censorship are principles of life I value and cherish. I will support any political regime that values these principles, and will support those political regimes with the ability and determination to provide these principles for all the people.. However I will not support a regime where that regime acts only on the basis of internal commercial, financial, political, or military motives as the reason for intervention/non-intervention in world affairs. The US is guilty of both these modes of operation. I support the US in her current determination to weed out and eradicate terrorism but this must not be done on a selective basis, and also must be done where US political, military, or commercial interests may be compromised.

    The best weapon any democracy has is the vote. With a country such as the US, with it's capability to influence world affairs (be it strategically, financially, politically, militarily or humanitarianly motivated), it shocks me that only around 50% of people actually participate in the US democratic system. (ie vote). In Australia, it is compulsory to attend the polling booth for all three levels of government (local, state & federal) at election time.

    I, as a non American citizen, cannot have a say in the matters of the US, or in the actions that will be taken. I must place my trust and faith in the US to do what is necessary. I do urge all US citizens to become more politically aware, and use all the facilities available to your democracy to influence your government to do what it right for the world, not just the US.

    More than 100 Australians are listed as killed or missing in these latest acts of terror. This far outranks any single event of disaster involving Australians (both here and overseas) in peace times, including fire, earthquake, plane/train crash, the lot.

    The Australian Government has pledged all the support it can provide to the US in this time of crisis, and I do support the support of the Australian Government. However I will be using all the democratic processes available to me to ensure my government’s support is provided on the basis of the best interests of the world, and not just the US.

    The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
  8. N Gauger

    N Gauger 1:20.3 Train Addict

    Ahhhh, Woodie,

    The Uncertainty of it all. I am involved in the voting system, I voted in every election since I turned 18. (I'm 42) We Americans are quite apathetic when we are "secure". Our day-to-day life is very introverted in that, if we do not "bother" anyone, then noone will bother us.

    More than 1/2 of us do not even realize that we EACH could change our Government, if only the polititions would be truthful at election time. Instead they "stretch the truth" in order to garner votes to get what they want. Every election is the same. It would not surprise me to find that the news reports might soon say that this (WTC)is some kind of personal thing against our fine President.

    I saw (or heard) somewhere that the US people are too quick to forget all the things you mention. We are a forward looking lot. Never mind how we treat the other countries, just don't do anything to us! This mindset, always seems to backfire, no????

    Thre are people I know that are already worried that the gas prices will go up if/when we make war. (Always looking at ourselves) We tell others that we have everything under control, when in reality Congress & the Pres. are still wondering what we are to do next.

    Did you see/hear the initiative that our Air Force is allowed to shoot down planes that prove to be hijaked?? I wonder if they will actually go through with it????

    I wonder what will happen next. We won't know until it happens. :( See ya!!!!
  9. Bill Stone

    Bill Stone Member

    Very, very well said, Woodie.

    One of the reasons, perhaps, for the low U S voter turnout, is that the U S is not a true democracy, as was patently evident in our last election when the outdated electoral college system (presuming no actual fraud) placed a man in the President's office who received fewer votes than his opponent. Makes it difficult for some to see much point in casting their votes.

    As regards required voting: The argument against such a plan that I hear most often is that requiring votes from persons either without the intellect for, or the intellectual interest in, participation, would serve no constructive purpose as the net result would likely be uninformed, careless, or even frivolous votes. Another argument: Shouldn't a free people be free to choose --- even to vote?

    Then there's this: The new ratings list of the most and least corrupt countries (prepared by Transparency International) is out, and the U S has gained no ground from last year. Still 14th, behind the likes of Finland (least corrupt), Denmark, New Zealand, Iceland, Singapore, Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Norway. I find it shameful that my country, supposedly the world leader, can muster only a so-so showing.

  10. roryglasgow

    roryglasgow Active Member

    Yes, very well put, Woodie! But I think 50% is much higher than the typical turnout, which I think is somewhere around 25%. And I agree with what Bill said, too, that we get apathetic when we are comfortable. I don't know how it is in other countries, but around here (East Texas, at least) it seems that we are of the mentality of "let's just get some dudes and dudettes into government and let them worry about it all while we go about our personal business."

    I was talking to some friends this evening about the subject of how we brought this onto ourselves (supporting the Taliban during the Soviet occupation). We did pretty much the same thing with Iraq--just because we needed an ally against a common enemy: Iran. And look what happened there...

    Maybe we shouldn't have bothered coming out of our shell in WWI. If the Japanese hadn't attacked us, we may have never gotten directly involved in WWII. And perhaps we shouldn't have bothered getting involved in all that Spy vs. Spy-subversion-underhandedness during the Cold War. We should have just let every country go whatever direction it went. But, of course, the Soviets were right there doing their part...still, we probably should have just sat back and let it happen anyway. I mean, we'd probably still be in pretty much the same boat, with enemies attacking us on our own ground, but at least we'd have cleaner hands.

  11. Gary Pfeil

    Gary Pfeil Active Member

    Woodie, I agree with what you say in regard to the U.S. foreign policy. It is driven by Pragmatism, the philosophy which declares that whatever works at the moment is the right. Yet this philosophy is used to describe most politicians and many businessmen! And it is meant to convey a good thing! No one seems to realize (and certainly no major newspapers will ever say) that Pragmatism also means the abandonment of principles. This country, founded on the concept of individual rights and a system unrivaled in its ability to provide the needed setting for the establishment and maintenace of those rights(capitalism), has for decades gone around the world apologizing for its wealth, telling all that any other system is just as valid as ours. Who can then blame the world for believing us? And who could not despise us as hypocritical? There has been no system that has showed its ability to improve human life like capatilism. No one even knows what capitalism is. Most think of it as a system full of greed. Our government has done its best to put that image forward. This is not the forum for political/philosopical discussion, and a proper discussion would be very lengthy. I recommend anyone who has an honest desire to understand the subject read the book "Capitalism, the unknown ideal" by Ayn Rand. It consists of essays rebuking the most common "faults" of capitalism.
    Regarding the vote, I think most people don't vote because they feel there is no fundamental difference in the candidates. I know the Republicans and Democrats out there are thinking "My god, how can he say that!" Neither party supports individual right, nor even knows what they are. Republicans, in popular theory, support big business and somehow oppress the poor, by not giving them the undeserved. However, I would suggest that they do not support big business, that they enforce the corrupt anti trust laws as vigourously as Democrats. They used to believe that social support programs should be minimized, but that disappeared long ago. Democrats are outright socialists, only held back by how much they think they can get away with. Let me say here that there can be no such thing as a right to medical care, or food, or housing. These things do not occur in nature, they are provided by men. For some to have the right to the product of the effort of others is slavery. There can be no right to enslave. And spreading the enslavement out amoung all the population via the government only makes makes the evil worse. Rights pertain to action, the right to pursue a course of action, to take a job if one is offerd, to keep the gains of your efforts and use them as you wish. To hold the religeous and political beliefs you choose, but not to force them on others.

    I'm sorry to have gone on, this has been a difficult week, and I have heard and read so much that I feel misses the point. People, we have been attacked because the fanatics behind the Taliban hate our way of life, and they think they can get away with it because of the way we have acted for the last several years. We constantly turn the other cheek, and denounce our own system by supporting, as Woodie said, governments diametrically oppossed to our own. When you spit in your own face, what can you expect? Pragmatism has come back to haunt us.


Share This Page