700 x 80 WWI - 1:33 - Spoked Wheel Project

Discussion in 'Gallery & Designs' started by Gil, Jan 19, 2007.

  1. Gil

    Gil Active Member

  2. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Silk Laced Wheel

    Redundancy Removed.
  3. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Silk Laced Wheel

    Received the 100 weight, single strand, silk thread. The following wheel was laced with it. The tire diameter is off and the rim is too wide but that's easily corrected. Forming the tire halves is now the most difficult part of the overall process.

  4. josve

    josve Active Member

    That looks just great Gil!

    I have a little tip for those who want to get some thread.
    Since I have been doing flytying for many years I have a large collection of thread in different sizes, and also a lot of silk thread in different colors and size.
    The flytying threads are very strong and comes as single thread and the twisted type.
    So I would guess that going into the flyfishers shop could give the cardmodeller a lot of nice items for the hobby :)
  5. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Ropey Effect Is Disturbing

    Hi Johnny,

    The silk works great. The "ropey look" is still bothering me. It isn't that apparent at normal viewing distance but becomes a real problem in "macro" mode. I like the look of the nylon monofilament but have some reservations at the scale factor of 2 lb. test and the inability to bond it securely to the paper tire halves.

    Your tip on fly tying provided a new avenue for search. Interesting enough it lead back to nylon monofilament but instead of fishing line monofilament it turned out to be invisible thread used in quilting (.004" vs .005" for 2 lb. test) and is available at most sewing shops. I think Eric suggested this some time ago. An interesting turn in the development is a different method of assembly allowing the laced spokes to be bonded to one of the tire halves. I have found a specially formulated super glue that will bond nylon to the prepared paper tire halves.

    This is next of course.

  6. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    New Development

    The following image is the reason I haven't posted anything for awhile on this project. It took much more time than I thought it would but the good news is that it exists and better yet I can make more than one. The process is, as you might expect, a little complicated, but after the first one it's easy to do and rather therapeutic for some odd reason. Yes, it is a tire half made of cardboard from a Cheerio's cereal box. It was formed around a CA hardened inner ring. Only lightly sanded to remove some of the remaining surface PVA before the picture was taken.

    The reason behind this development was the fact that the inner curvature of the tire cross section was difficult if not impossible to sand using a Dremel tool. Doing it by hand took way to long and was subject to unsightly surface discontinuities.

    On the subject of monofilament spoke lacing the CA for plastics works very well and will now be integrated into the wheel design.

    Till Next...,


  7. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Quick Update

    Hi All,

    I've been pre-occupied with achieving a tire profile that appears "real". Sanding the profile to shape, as previously stated, just wasn't yielding the right profile as the tire transitions to the rim. I made the decision to try "forming" the tire over a CA hardened aramature which, after a little experimentation, proved to be an acceptable technique. In fact it can be adapted to quite a few other items in cardmodeling. One that comes immediately to mind is exhaust headers.

    Another item that was not quite ready was the split rims. Two issues had to be dealt with before the design could be released. One was how to get the outside diameter to coincide with the inside diameter of the tire. The second was how to make each rim the same width (cleanly). Happily a very nice technique came together for a happy ending. It will be included in the tutorial, of course, but I'd just like to say that it can also be used for many other purposes in cardmodeling.

    The image below shows in the upper left several tire blanks with the hardended armature and the outer "skin" ready for forming. To the right of these are the cut rims. Note the two different thicknesses (the thin ones are about 0.35 mm thick). The bottom shows two tire halves with their respective split rims dry mounted for photography. The one on the right gives an idea of the cross section of the formed tire.

    Till Next...,


  8. Maharg

    Maharg Member

    Great work Gil, I can't wait for the tut. :)
  9. Leif Oh

    Leif Oh Member

  10. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Progress Update

    Hello All,

    Thanks for the liaison work Leif, it is much appreciated.

    A prototype wheel was assembled using the formed tires and invisible thread. A few issues with the assembly process had to be worked out on the fly but the results are satisfactory. One critique is that the tire is too large and needs to be reduced. This will be accomplished by reducing the thickness of the covering sheath to below 0.5 mm. The invisible thread along with the plastic CA worked well together. The invisible thread presents a problem in that it is very hard to see even with magnification.

    The image below is the unpainted results of the build. The rims are dry fit.
    I'm beginning to think that the end of the development period is now drawing to a close with most of the odd bits and ends now put to task. It's been a rather long process and I appreciate the support of this community over the development period...,

    Till next...,


  11. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Fokker Spoked Wheels 1:33 Scale

    Hi Gil,

    Are you by any chance going to build a Fokker D.VIII? The 'flying razor'?
    That´s my favourite. I´m doing an upscaled 1:33 Maly Modelarz E.V/D.VIII build at the moment.

    I like the natural light brown rubber color of the tires - very period-like. The prototype spoked wheel looks fantastic!

    All the best,
    Bengt :D
  12. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Maly-Modelarz EV./D.VIII

    Hi Bengt,

    The fuselage is already finished waiting for a period set of spoked wheels without the mudguards. So the answer is yes! The engine is from Richard and the earlier prop development tutorial was also done for this model.

    I also plan to show; how to make the cooling guard for the Spandau machineguns using a homemade punch; and a smoothly contoured cowl made from tooling foil.

    The tires actually as shown are a pretty good match for a Be2e which I also have on the list. One of the more interesting positive points of making tires with this method is that the cardboard delaminates somewhat becoming soft and pliable allowing a flat spot to be molded into the tire as part of the final finishing if desired. The tire is the raw color of the cardboard. The practice of the period was to mix zinc oxide with the rubber giving a fairly white colored tire. The color quickly turned a gray brown through use and exposure to the sun. That decision will be left to the individual modeler.

    A Question for those interested in the "Spoked Wheel Tutorial":

    A point that I've been deliberating over is the tutorial presentation style. I've already prepared a book style tutorial that remains a work in progress but have had some second thoughts on using that format to explain the process of learing to make spoked wheels. I am thinking that explaining it in the normal forum style allows those interested to ask questions about the process that may not be clear or worse are overlooked. I call this the "Open Method" versus the book style as the "Closed Method". How do you all feel about this, open or closed style for the tutorial?

    Till next...,

  13. Bowdenja

    Bowdenja Active Member

    Gil........... there is a little too much grease on the axle hub:grin:

    I remember the spandau punch............. really glad you are going to do that again. That was the best WWI gun build I ever saw!

    Really thankful for all your work on this spoked wheel development tutorial.......... even I feel that it is something I can do............. that's saying a lot!

  14. Amazyah

    Amazyah Senior Member

    I think I prefer the "Open" method, with editing, so we get the best of both worlds.

    Of course, thats just my opinion...:wink:

  15. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Spoked Wheel Tutorial

    Hi Gil,

    Thank you so much for your thorough reply. I really look forward to seeing your engine cowl - I remember seing the one you made for another model - a Sopwith? It looked great.
    I also very much look forward to seeing your method of punching tiny holes in the cooling tubes for the twin Spandaus - it´s so much more realistic with real holes than the non-printed white areas. Of course the interior of the tubes has to be dyed dark gray or black then.

    So the prototype spoked wheels are intended for a Be2e model? I thought the brown tires looked a bit thick for a Fok D.VIII.
    And yes, you´re right about the colour of the tires; in the black & white period pictures we see in the literature, mostly 1917-18, the lightly-coloured gray natural rubber tires (with zinc oxide sun, read UV, protection) are almost always covered up to the rims with mud from the constantly muddy airfields in wartime Germany, for example at Schwerin.
    Perhaps rolling the model wheels through a thin layer of mud (made for example out of gray-brown pottery clay) would add the proper wheathered 'touch'? I have actually quite often thought about that, when I was building the Modele-Kartonowe Fok E. IIIs, on and off.

    I personally think that wheathering is often sadly neglected among paper modellers, whereas among plastic modellers, it´s common proceedure. Speaking of whethering, this coming weekend I´m attending the annual Swedish IPMS Open show and competitions, which is held here in Stockholm. Here´s a 'virtual tour' from the 2004 show: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/galleries/tour_2004/index.htm
    Last spring (2006) I was there, showing card modelling and informing about Cardmodels.net and Kartonbau.de at a large table of my very own, thanks to the administrators. A lot of people were interested in what I had to show and I think it´s slowly picking up here, too, even if the people of the plastic model building community occasionally are a tad conservative. But alas, this spring I cannot do a renewed card modelling demonstration, because I have injured my right shoulder and arm.
    Interestlingly, this spring there is a new competition theme called "Winter", with reference to what I have said about whethering.

    I find it interesting that you favour Richard Schulten´s Oberursel/Gnome/Le Rhône rotary engine over the one in the Maly kit - I can see why; it´s a masterpiece.

    Back to the subject of my post - re. a "Spoked Wheel Tutorial": I am definitely in favour of the "Open Method".

    Thanks, Gil.
    All the best,
    Bengt :D

    PS. I am attaching a PDF below - it´s in Swedish (as it´s the only existing one). Some of you, like Leif and Johnny, might be able to understand it. For all you non-Swedish speakers, it´s just there to give you a general idea when this takes place.

    Attached Files:

  16. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Open Method Tutorial

    Hello All,

    Thanks for the replies. I had a suspicion that the open method for the tutorial was going to be the choice. I personally like it because it allows interaction in the form of questions, clarifications and additional information to be discussed. That's why I call it the "Open" method.

    Bengt, Sorry to hear about your shoulder. I had rotator cup surgery several years ago to relieve what had become an increasingly intolerable pain level. It can really limit your personal mobility.

    The picture tour from the IPMS in Sweden has some fairly spectacular models in it. The Fokker and trench diorama is especially well done. I believe you're right about paper modelers neglecting to use weathering techniques on their models. The issue, I believe, comes down to who does the weathering, the model designer or the modeler. I think a happy balance can be struck between the two wherein some weathering items are better done in Photoshop while others are best done by the addition of colored chalks and even coffee grounds for mud. I've thinking about the Fokker E.V/D.VIII in Polands campaign against the Bolsheviks in 1919. Showing the model sitting at a forward airfield in a muddy field overgrown with grass keeps coming to mind. Winterizing it after an early Winter snowstorm dusting would be unique but I'd have to research how to make an effective looking snow (white coffee grounds? styrofoam snow?)..., I think sometimes that it's the daydreaming that keeps most modelers going on with their projects...,

    Till next...,

    Best regards,

  17. josve

    josve Active Member

    I also vote for the open method!

    A lot of rules in that contest Bengt!
    The Norwegian IPMS contest was last weekend, I was not there....
    But next year I have plans to bring my models with me to the show.
    I have been invited by some of the Norwegian IPMS members.
    They are very curious about how the papermodels looks in real life :)
  18. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Help? I nearly missed all of this!

    I am fairly new to the forum, but I've tried to look at all the previous material that was of interest. I never dreamed of going into the designers section. I found out about this because I stumbled upon Gil's pdf showing the jig, and he showed me the thread. I had looked at Eric's thread on wire wheels - but this one escaped me.
    How do all of you airplane people find the nooks and crannies that hold this beautiful stuff? I want to do a couple of these wheels for my Fokker E-ll, (did they at times wear them? - I couldn't find that out)
    Gil - this is ground breaking material, and thanks so much for spending the considerable effort to share it with the many people like me who are getting into this very rewarding pastime.
    I wondered where the airplane people were of late - they are all over here watching wheels being made :)

  19. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Welcome & Thanks!

    Welcome Aboard Keith!

    Thanks for the words of encouragement. Actually I think the placement of the tutorial was wrongly placed by none other than yours truly..., It will be placed in the tutorial section later or moved by one of the admins if they feel it's needed. I've now got to pull together the odds and ends that shows everyone how to exercise a bit of manual dexterity, personal judgement and a flair for a bit of therapeutic pursuit in their idle hours..., in other words how to make the tire halves. The rest is fairly by the book except maybe lacing the spokes. Making the split rims introduces a really nice technique that shouldn't be missed, even by dyed in the wool armour types (better known as "targets"). As for beautiful stuff it's strewn all over the place you just have to look for it. It's actually a nice test for entry to the environs.

    So tune in, post often, learn to use the macro feature of your digital camera, and build as much as you can whenever you can...,

  20. cgutzmer

    cgutzmer Guest

    It will go into the reserves upon completion as well :D

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