Logging East Tennessee on the C&S RR
- Thread starter Doctor G
- Start date
Hi ytter_man and co.,
Glad you liked the fording the stream scene. Apparently the branchlines in to the woods were so temporary that tracks were laid in shallow creeks without a thought of building a bridge. I am sorry I cannot locate the prototype picture from which this inspiration came from. I do remember Bob Boudreau (SP?) did a similiar scene in MR a few years ago.
Travelling further East back out on the mailnline we reach the Kittom #1 lumber mill complex. Mr. Bubba is getting a stern lecture from the foreman after he dropped the boom of the Brownhoist crane he was operating into a flat car. The boom is bent and will be taken to the C&S carshops over in Railcamp for home made repairs. The foreman is making sure Mr Bubba feels his pain over said incident.
Doc Tom
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Getting the logs out of the woods, and into the mills, was the priority. Track was laid to do just that (and get the loggers to the camps), and once the area was logged out, the tracks were moved to get to a new location. If a stream ran full enough,year round, to wash out the tracks, it was bridged. If that only happened after a storm, or spring thaw,the stream was forded, and the washouts were "repaired", knowing that it would only be a short time before the line moved.
Less than standard, quickly laid, "risky" track, was the hallmark of mountain lumber lines, and, (thankfully) the primary reason for the invention of Shays, Heislers, and Climaxes, which, by the way Doctor G., you do great justice to. Great photos, and back stories! :thumb: :thumb:
Thanks Sumpter
Hi Sumpter,
Thanks for the in depth discussion on the use of temporary tracks on logging railroads.
In fact this recycling of tracks is so important to logging shows that I have modeled abandoned branch lines and new lines being built deep in the woods. I'll show some pictures later. It does give reasons for different loads other than logs and empty flats. It does give our dispatcher one more train (track laying team) to move around the RR safely.
This is a great site and I am happy to continue posting pictures to keep the dialogue going.
Doc Tom
Hi Sumpter,
Thanks for the in depth discussion on the use of temporary tracks on logging railroads.
In fact this recycling of tracks is so important to logging shows that I have modeled abandoned branch lines and new lines being built deep in the woods. I'll show some pictures later. It does give reasons for different loads other than logs and empty flats. It does give our dispatcher one more train (track laying team) to move around the RR safely.
This is a great site and I am happy to continue posting pictures to keep the dialogue going.
Doc Tom
In the area modeled, I imagine rains were frequent. Sounds little wasteful to have to send track repair crews all the time and hold up logging operations until tracks are repaired. I can see a very simple support for the track, but not laying the track into the stream.
There is also the question of the stability of the stream bed under a fully loaded log train. Not sure I would want to bet the solvency of my company on a solution like that. We never even used that tactic here in Colorado, where it doesn't rain nearly as often.
Just as cheap and easy to to throw in some cribbing and track across that.
There is also the question of the stability of the stream bed under a fully loaded log train. Not sure I would want to bet the solvency of my company on a solution like that. We never even used that tactic here in Colorado, where it doesn't rain nearly as often.
Just as cheap and easy to to throw in some cribbing and track across that.
A Lumber Mill Nestled in the Mountains
Notice the general clutter of the logging industry in the late 1920's. It has always been dirty dangerous work.
Doc Tom
Well, lets go further east to the outskirts of Caseyville, Tennessee.Nestled in the mountains is the Kittom Mill #1 complex. There are several mills with many sawyers at work making sticks of wood from the trees that the lokies hauled to the site.I cant wait to see more
Notice the general clutter of the logging industry in the late 1920's. It has always been dirty dangerous work.
Doc Tom
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Found prototype pictures with geared lokies in creeks
Hi Mountain Man,
Thanks for continuing this discussion about logging railroads in the mountains in the East and the Great American West.
I finally found the prototype pictures that got me going on modeling trains in rivers. It is in RAILS THROUGH DIXIE by John Krause (1965). The book had two interesting pictures of a Shay and a Climax fording streams on the Elk River RR in West Virginia. I love Krause's caption for the Climax in the creek. "In an episode so alien to dreadfully efficient Class I speed runs, Elk River Climax no.3 breasts a torrent while a nonchalant group finds nothing out of ordinary. They'd been here before and,besides, tomorrow might be worse."
Doc Tom
Hi Mountain Man,
Thanks for continuing this discussion about logging railroads in the mountains in the East and the Great American West.
I finally found the prototype pictures that got me going on modeling trains in rivers. It is in RAILS THROUGH DIXIE by John Krause (1965). The book had two interesting pictures of a Shay and a Climax fording streams on the Elk River RR in West Virginia. I love Krause's caption for the Climax in the creek. "In an episode so alien to dreadfully efficient Class I speed runs, Elk River Climax no.3 breasts a torrent while a nonchalant group finds nothing out of ordinary. They'd been here before and,besides, tomorrow might be worse."
Doc Tom
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Several years ago, I was out to Phoenix, Az. I had scheduled two stops on the return trip. A ride on the Grand Canyon Ry, from Williams, to the Canyon and back, and a ride on the Durango & Silverton.
On the trip up to the Canyon, the train came to a stop, in the middle of the desert, and we all had to de-train, and get on buses to complete the trip. There had been a heavy rain, in the night, and there was a washout that kept the train from proceeding.
The washout was repaired, and the train was in the station waiting for us, for the return trip to Williams, that evening.
This begs the question; "Why didn't they bridge the area where the washout occurred?"
The "logical" answer was that it was far less expensive to dump some new fill, and put in some new ties, occasionally, than it would be to build (and maintain) a bridge.
Besides, the idea of a train "fording a stream" has a certain appeal, and would be very much in keeping with "Don't spend any more on that line than absolutely necessary, it will be gone in a year anyway".
:mrgreen: Corporate greed is not a new thing! :mrgreen:
BTW Doctor G, nice pic's of "stream fording"
On the trip up to the Canyon, the train came to a stop, in the middle of the desert, and we all had to de-train, and get on buses to complete the trip. There had been a heavy rain, in the night, and there was a washout that kept the train from proceeding.
The washout was repaired, and the train was in the station waiting for us, for the return trip to Williams, that evening.
This begs the question; "Why didn't they bridge the area where the washout occurred?"
The "logical" answer was that it was far less expensive to dump some new fill, and put in some new ties, occasionally, than it would be to build (and maintain) a bridge.
Besides, the idea of a train "fording a stream" has a certain appeal, and would be very much in keeping with "Don't spend any more on that line than absolutely necessary, it will be gone in a year anyway".
:mrgreen: Corporate greed is not a new thing! :mrgreen:
BTW Doctor G, nice pic's of "stream fording"
amazing pics doctor G,your layout is fantastic with just the right amount of detail.and the water fording has forced me to put a scene similar to it on my layout ,its just to cool looking to pass up :thumb:--josh
,its just to cool looking to pass up :thumb:--joshThat must have given the engine crews moments of doubt! Thanks for the pics and the history. I never would have believed it if you hadn't. :thumb:
Log Crib Bridge too
Hello fellow model rails and logging enthusiasts.
I have enjoyed the discussion the locomotives (real and model) in the creek has started.
Mountain Man is correct in that a large number of the bridges on a logging outfit were made from log cribbing. In fact some were pretty impressive.
I'm going to move the "picture tour" about 20 smiles East on the mainline of the C&S to show the large cribbed bridge built to cross a fairly formidable holler high in the Tennessee mountains. When the woods played out these precut logs could be taken apart, hauled to the sawmill, and turned into more lumber and sawdust.
I have included a prototype picture of the huge log crib bridge that inspired the model.
Doc Tom
Hello fellow model rails and logging enthusiasts.
I have enjoyed the discussion the locomotives (real and model) in the creek has started.
Mountain Man is correct in that a large number of the bridges on a logging outfit were made from log cribbing. In fact some were pretty impressive.
I'm going to move the "picture tour" about 20 smiles East on the mainline of the C&S to show the large cribbed bridge built to cross a fairly formidable holler high in the Tennessee mountains. When the woods played out these precut logs could be taken apart, hauled to the sawmill, and turned into more lumber and sawdust.
I have included a prototype picture of the huge log crib bridge that inspired the model.
Doc Tom
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Nice work!! Man I love logging model railroads this is better than any I've seen in model railroading magazines! I wish I could have your layout. I love the shays and the logging scenes like the rails running through the creek bed and the cribbed bridge. Do you happen to have any photos that could give us birds eye views of your layout? Your pictures all have such depth that takes you away from reality but I want to see a few pictures showing a bit of reality like the walls of the room surrounding your immense layout. Also are there any projects on this layout or is it done and you're enjoying the fine thing in life of just running the railroad?
-Justin
-Justin
I concur with Justin....This is as good as any in publications, and far better than most....A real masterpiece..!!
Thank You
Thank you for the nice comments. It has been a pleasure to post pictures here and I have really enjoyed the dialogue about logging railroads that has developed since posting the pics.
Part of the fun of the pictures is that old model railroad photography trick of taking pictures at rail level. That is as if one of your .75" little HO people had a camera in his hand. THe SONY Cyber Shot I use is lightweight and has a flat bottom and allows me to literally place the camera on the rails and use the timer to take the shots you have seen. In fact I am seeing my layout from angles I have never seen before!!!
In technical jargon the Sony can shoot at ISO 80 with an f stop of 8.0 and a shutter speed of about 2.0 to 2.5 seconds to make these pictures.
This is a really good model RR site and I thank those behind it for making it so easy to post digital images for everyone's enjoyment.
Doc Tom
Hi Justin and Gus,
Thank you for the nice comments. It has been a pleasure to post pictures here and I have really enjoyed the dialogue about logging railroads that has developed since posting the pics.
Part of the fun of the pictures is that old model railroad photography trick of taking pictures at rail level. That is as if one of your .75" little HO people had a camera in his hand. THe SONY Cyber Shot I use is lightweight and has a flat bottom and allows me to literally place the camera on the rails and use the timer to take the shots you have seen. In fact I am seeing my layout from angles I have never seen before!!!
In technical jargon the Sony can shoot at ISO 80 with an f stop of 8.0 and a shutter speed of about 2.0 to 2.5 seconds to make these pictures.
This is a really good model RR site and I thank those behind it for making it so easy to post digital images for everyone's enjoyment.
Doc Tom
Hi ytter_man,
Thanks for the nice compliments. The scenery material you are noting is el cheapo "floral moss" sold in big bags at WalMart and Home Depot for about $2.00. It makes a good ground cover before planting the trees.
The cribwork did take a while and is made from twigs taken from the woods arond here. I live in a log cabin (what else for a logging RR?) in a hardwood forest in rural middle Tennessee.
The cross logs are cut at a prototypical 16' to 18' length (I asked the local logger who fells trees in the woods around here.) and glued in place with clamps starting at track level and working down. THese are the same size as the cut sticks on the flat cars heading to the mill. When the woods played out the loggers would take down the bridge and haul it to the sawmill. Talk about recycling!!!
Doc Tom
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: That's your story, and you should "stick" to it, but, as I hear it, your next door neighbor is still trying to figure out what happened to his shrubs! :twisted: :mrgreen:
I remember seeing the pictures of trains traveling over flooded tracks, right after the major Midwest floods, a couple of years ago. AC, and DC traction motors, in the water!?! That's moments of doubt!
This, is one of the things a well painted backdrop creates. I would guess that there's less than a foot from the rails to the "wall", in most of the photos.
Reality picture
Hi Justin,
I am posting a reality picture to keep us all grounded. This is a shot of the Kittom Mill #1 area of the layout. It's edge is only about 1.5 to 2.0 feet from the wall. It is the painted backdrop that probably fools the eye in the "up close " pictures that look like they have great depth.
The layout is built using conventional L girder construction and uses code 100 Atlas Flextrack.....very very basic.
The layout is almost finished wih one large scenic area , the Wonderland Hotel and Cottages, yet to be finished.
Thanks for your enthusiasm!!!!
Dr Tom:mrgreen:
Hi Justin,
I am posting a reality picture to keep us all grounded. This is a shot of the Kittom Mill #1 area of the layout. It's edge is only about 1.5 to 2.0 feet from the wall. It is the painted backdrop that probably fools the eye in the "up close " pictures that look like they have great depth.
The layout is built using conventional L girder construction and uses code 100 Atlas Flextrack.....very very basic.
The layout is almost finished wih one large scenic area , the Wonderland Hotel and Cottages, yet to be finished.
Thanks for your enthusiasm!!!!
Dr Tom:mrgreen:
